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All 16 posts Subject: Possible nucleosynthesis route to phosphorus. Please login to post Down

Lestat
(Hive Bee)
08-20-04 22:47
No 526527
User Picture       Possible nucleosynthesis route to phosphorus.

I had a brainwave just recently, concerning a possibly SYNTHESIS rather than a source, for phosphorus.

Natural sillicon is just over 92% 28Si with a few % each of 29Si and 30Si making up the rest.

The artificial isotope 31Si has a half life of 2.61 hours and decays by beta emission to beecome stable 31P

Perhaps the naturally occuring isotopes of sillicon could be transmuted to 31Si via neutron bombardment, preferably of a fine powder of Si, and under an atmosphere inert to phosphorus.

So irradiate the sillicon with neutron radiation from a combination of either radium or thorium salts purified respectively from old radium paint, or dissolving tungsten thoriated welding electrodes in H2O2, or possibly aqquire a small amount of uranyl nitrate/acetate from a specialist photography suppliers and reduce it to first uranium oxide, then to free uranium metal via a thermite reduction with Li metal.

Passing the radiation that comes from these elements (which would bee expensive in the short term, but would last for a looooong time and certainly earn their keep) through beryllium would generate intense levels of neutron radiation, a neutron gun could bee constructed out of a lead block with a receptacle for the radiation source, with a beryllium strip or foil over the hole to genenerate the neutrons as desired, or failing beryllium, which is extrememly toxic, perhaps borated parrafil could bee substituted allbeeit for slightly lesser effect.

This certainly would be a novel source of phosphorus, although, quite probably it would have to bee heated strongly to prepare the red allotrope from white phosphorus, assuming the white modification was what you were left with from the beta decay of the radio-sillicon.

Input on this anybee? I have a feeling that if it works, that this would be just up JJ's alley.

Kids, say NO to the DEA!

Lestat
(Hive Bee)
08-22-04 00:17
No 526653
User Picture       just curious, but why was this moved to the...

just curious, but why was this moved to the couch of all places? No disrespect to whoever did, I just wonder why?

Kids, say NO to the DEA!

paranoid
(Quick-witted Quibbler)
08-22-04 02:28
No 526681
User Picture       All this for phosphorous?

All this for phosphorous? You've got to be joking, right?

My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
08-22-04 03:48
No 526719
User Picture       ummm

Remember, this is a person who thinks he is a vampire.

caveat emptor

Lestat
(Hive Bee)
08-22-04 17:49
No 526788
      I don't see why this woulodn't be worth the...

I don't see why this woulodn't be worth the initial outlay for a large scale cook, if it works.

I will give this a try when I have sufficient funds.
The beryllium is the hard part I think though as it is hard to come by. I will get back to you all when I have tried this with news of how it did.

Kids, say NO to the DEA!

TrypNballZium
(Hive Bee)
08-22-04 18:32
No 526790
User Picture       promise?

I know I cant wait

Will Pimp 4 Food!

hypo
(Quasiquerumodo)
08-22-04 22:14
No 526811
      worst brainfart of the week :P

wow.
i thought psyloxy should get the award for the most impractical synthesis of a trivial
compound (amphetamine), but this beats it. i guess psyloxy can still get the most
impractical but _possible_ synthesis-award though.

He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it

Lestat
(Hive Bee)
08-22-04 22:22
No 526813
User Picture       I checked this over with a friend, and it IS...

I checked this over with a friend, and it IS possible to form phosphorus in this way, the problem would be knowing when to stop the neutron irradiation from going on too long and either forming radioactive P isotopes of short half life, making a higher isotope of Si, or going too far and making it into something other than P entirely.

You would have to work out how long it is going to take to form the correct isotope of Si which would bee the hard part, knowing the time it would take to irradiate a given sample of Si.

As one would know the neutron capture rate in barns, and when the mass of the radiation source was known, wouldn't it bee possible to work out exactly the time required to irradiate it sufficiently to get where one wants to bee?

Kids, say NO to the DEA!

MargaretThatcher
(Hive Bee)
08-22-04 22:45
No 526818
User Picture       Flux

You might need to build your own nuclear reactor to get the required neutron flux. Your product will contain some phosphorus but will also be so radioactive, it will kill you before the P/I reflux has finished.

Are you, or have you ever been a Liberal? YES / NO

paranoid
(Quick-witted Quibbler)
08-22-04 22:48
No 526819
User Picture       No offence kid, but I doubt you've got what it

Ridiculousness of this idea aside...

No offence kid, but I doubt you've got what it takes right now to do this, both in terms of education and certainly equipment.   I think you highly underestimate the difficulty with working with radiation.

Not to mention that if you think it's difficult to get certain chems, just try to get your hands on anything to do with radioactivity shielding, nevermind anything radioactive. Assuming you could actually get it, you'd have the national security police on your doorstep in no time.

Not to mention this is just monkey-balls crazy.

My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
08-22-04 23:32
No 526833
User Picture       He's a vampire, so he doesn't need any ...

He's a vampire, so he doesn't need any shielding. He also has lots of time, so no need to rush this synth.

I once worked with radium which produced 20000 decays per second. This is an amount the public will never get their hands on, btw. Assuming that every decay would produce one atom of P (just for shit and giggles, of course it won't work in real life), you would only have to acquire about 450g of radium and then wait for 1600 years to produce one mole of P. Wow, impressive.

One gram of Ra226 undergoes 3.7*10E10 disintegrations per second. So if you somehow managed to get one gram you would only need to wait (6.02*10E23)/(3.7*10E10) seconds, assuming that every decay will produce 1 P atom (bollocks of course) and activity of the Ra source wouldn't diminish at all (even more bollocks). That's 37000000000 seconds to produce 32/226=141 MILLIGRAMS of P at 100% efficiency.

Congratulations Mr. Vampire, you've really outdone yourself and impressed us all. Will you bite me pretty please?

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

hypo
(Quasiquerumodo)
08-22-04 23:40
No 526836
      ahem....

i think there's a logarithm missing in your calculations. wink
(with a fraction of a mol of Ra, you'll never get a mol of decays...)

He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
08-22-04 23:46
No 526839
User Picture       Yes, I simply assumed that the activity ...

Yes, I simply assumed that the activity wouldn't decline, which is of course bullshit since it will, by 1% every 25 years. I have even measured the half life of radium myself many years ago, I just don't remember the decay formula anymore (y=x*e^(whatthefuckever)???) and was too lazy to look it up.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

hypo
(Quasiquerumodo)
08-22-04 23:52
No 526844
      yep,

and the approximation would have been perfectly alright, if you hadn't found a result of >1000years.
(i.e. half of the radium gone - half-life=1602 years) laugh

He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
08-23-04 00:29
No 526853
User Picture       What's a few years more or less for a real...

What's a few years more or less for a real vampire anyway? It's not like he is in a hurry to get his hands on P, right? May just as well wait another 1000 years.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

TrypNballZium
(Hive Bee)
08-23-04 01:14
No 526871
User Picture       ..

Will Pimp 4 Food!

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	All 16 posts		Subject: Possible nucleosynthesis route to phosphorus.		Please login to post		Down


		Lestat (Hive Bee) 08-20-04 22:47 No 526527				Possible nucleosynthesis route to phosphorus.
						I had a brainwave just recently, concerning a possibly SYNTHESIS rather than a source, for phosphorus. Natural sillicon is just over 92% 28Si with a few % each of 29Si and 30Si making up the rest. The artificial isotope 31Si has a half life of 2.61 hours and decays by beta emission to beecome stable 31P Perhaps the naturally occuring isotopes of sillicon could be transmuted to 31Si via neutron bombardment, preferably of a fine powder of Si, and under an atmosphere inert to phosphorus. So irradiate the sillicon with neutron radiation from a combination of either radium or thorium salts purified respectively from old radium paint, or dissolving tungsten thoriated welding electrodes in H2O2, or possibly aqquire a small amount of uranyl nitrate/acetate from a specialist photography suppliers and reduce it to first uranium oxide, then to free uranium metal via a thermite reduction with Li metal. Passing the radiation that comes from these elements (which would bee expensive in the short term, but would last for a looooong time and certainly earn their keep) through beryllium would generate intense levels of neutron radiation, a neutron gun could bee constructed out of a lead block with a receptacle for the radiation source, with a beryllium strip or foil over the hole to genenerate the neutrons as desired, or failing beryllium, which is extrememly toxic, perhaps borated parrafil could bee substituted allbeeit for slightly lesser effect. This certainly would be a novel source of phosphorus, although, quite probably it would have to bee heated strongly to prepare the red allotrope from white phosphorus, assuming the white modification was what you were left with from the beta decay of the radio-sillicon. Input on this anybee? I have a feeling that if it works, that this would be just up JJ's alley. Kids, say NO to the DEA!



		Lestat (Hive Bee) 08-22-04 00:17 No 526653				just curious, but why was this moved to the...
						just curious, but why was this moved to the couch of all places? No disrespect to whoever did, I just wonder why? Kids, say NO to the DEA!



		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 08-22-04 02:28 No 526681				All this for phosphorous?
						All this for phosphorous? You've got to be joking, right? My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).



		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 08-22-04 03:48 No 526719				ummm
						Remember, this is a person who thinks he is a vampire. caveat emptor



		Lestat (Hive Bee) 08-22-04 17:49 No 526788				I don't see why this woulodn't be worth the...
						I don't see why this woulodn't be worth the initial outlay for a large scale cook, if it works. I will give this a try when I have sufficient funds. The beryllium is the hard part I think though as it is hard to come by. I will get back to you all when I have tried this with news of how it did. Kids, say NO to the DEA!



		TrypNballZium (Hive Bee) 08-22-04 18:32 No 526790				promise?
						I know I cant wait Will Pimp 4 Food!



		hypo (Quasiquerumodo) 08-22-04 22:14 No 526811				worst brainfart of the week :P
						wow. i thought psyloxy should get the award for the most impractical synthesis of a trivial compound (amphetamine), but this beats it. i guess psyloxy can still get the most impractical but _possible_ synthesis-award though. He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it



		Lestat (Hive Bee) 08-22-04 22:22 No 526813				I checked this over with a friend, and it IS...
						I checked this over with a friend, and it IS possible to form phosphorus in this way, the problem would be knowing when to stop the neutron irradiation from going on too long and either forming radioactive P isotopes of short half life, making a higher isotope of Si, or going too far and making it into something other than P entirely. You would have to work out how long it is going to take to form the correct isotope of Si which would bee the hard part, knowing the time it would take to irradiate a given sample of Si. As one would know the neutron capture rate in barns, and when the mass of the radiation source was known, wouldn't it bee possible to work out exactly the time required to irradiate it sufficiently to get where one wants to bee? Kids, say NO to the DEA!



		MargaretThatcher (Hive Bee) 08-22-04 22:45 No 526818				Flux
						You might need to build your own nuclear reactor to get the required neutron flux. Your product will contain some phosphorus but will also be so radioactive, it will kill you before the P/I reflux has finished. Are you, or have you ever been a Liberal? YES / NO



		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 08-22-04 22:48 No 526819				No offence kid, but I doubt you've got what it
						Ridiculousness of this idea aside... No offence kid, but I doubt you've got what it takes right now to do this, both in terms of education and certainly equipment. I think you highly underestimate the difficulty with working with radiation. Not to mention that if you think it's difficult to get certain chems, just try to get your hands on anything to do with radioactivity shielding, nevermind anything radioactive. Assuming you could actually get it, you'd have the national security police on your doorstep in no time. Not to mention this is just monkey-balls crazy. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).



		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 08-22-04 23:32 No 526833				He's a vampire, so he doesn't need any ...
						He's a vampire, so he doesn't need any shielding. He also has lots of time, so no need to rush this synth. I once worked with radium which produced 20000 decays per second. This is an amount the public will never get their hands on, btw. Assuming that every decay would produce one atom of P (just for shit and giggles, of course it won't work in real life), you would only have to acquire about 450g of radium and then wait for 1600 years to produce one mole of P. Wow, impressive. One gram of Ra226 undergoes 3.710E10 disintegrations per second. So if you somehow managed to get one gram you would only need to wait (6.0210E23)/(3.7*10E10) seconds, assuming that every decay will produce 1 P atom (bollocks of course) and activity of the Ra source wouldn't diminish at all (even more bollocks). That's 37000000000 seconds to produce 32/226=141 MILLIGRAMS of P at 100% efficiency. Congratulations Mr. Vampire, you've really outdone yourself and impressed us all. Will you bite me pretty please? BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm



		hypo (Quasiquerumodo) 08-22-04 23:40 No 526836				ahem....
						i think there's a logarithm missing in your calculations. (with a fraction of a mol of Ra, you'll never get a mol of decays...) He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it



		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 08-22-04 23:46 No 526839				Yes, I simply assumed that the activity ...
						Yes, I simply assumed that the activity wouldn't decline, which is of course bullshit since it will, by 1% every 25 years. I have even measured the half life of radium myself many years ago, I just don't remember the decay formula anymore (y=x*e^(whatthefuckever)???) and was too lazy to look it up. BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm



		hypo (Quasiquerumodo) 08-22-04 23:52 No 526844				yep,
						and the approximation would have been perfectly alright, if you hadn't found a result of >1000years. (i.e. half of the radium gone - half-life=1602 years) He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it



		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 08-23-04 00:29 No 526853				What's a few years more or less for a real...
						What's a few years more or less for a real vampire anyway? It's not like he is in a hurry to get his hands on P, right? May just as well wait another 1000 years. BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm



		TrypNballZium (Hive Bee) 08-23-04 01:14 No 526871				..
						Will Pimp 4 Food!

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