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All 7 posts Subject: 1(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane novel use Please login to post Down

del72
(Stranger)
07-14-03 12:44
No 447058
      1(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane novel use

Ok this may be a stupid question, but wtf, seems interesting to me. I was curious about a possible analogue of mbdb. In pihkal shulgin, makes FLEA via essentially the same route that one make mdma accept that he uses methylhydroxylamine in place of methylamine. So my question is this could one make a corresponding MBDB analogue using this same substitution(using methylhydroxylamine in place of methylamine).   Yes methylamine is not that hard ot make but methylhydroxylamine is quite readily available for the asking at many places, MBDB is currently not available legally in the US anymore as it was "decreed" a positional isomer of mde by the DEA, but if the similarity in effects and dosage are noted in the mbdb analoge of FLEA as well than we have yet another goody that can be sold quazilegally in the research market. I am not an expert chemist so I am not sure why this would or would not work, so if anybody has any answers then I am all ears ;)

Ok one more question that tfse has not answered for me. What can be done(if anything) with: 4-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone? Can this be put through some sort of alchemical transformation into a usefull product?

thanks

ApoStLe oF cHaoS

Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-14-03 12:52
No 447061
User Picture       4-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone etc.

Yes, you definitely can use methylhydroxylamine in the synthesis instead. I don't know how legal the product would be though.

The 4-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone is pretty unusable, it is a lookalike product sold by unscrupulous research chem dealers to earn themselves some easy cash.

del72
(Stranger)
07-14-03 13:17
No 447065
      yeah I was kinda thinking that about the ...

yeah I was kinda thinking that about the 4(3,4etc,etc,etc.) after I could not any info on it. I assumed right off the bat that it must be usefull for something ;)

Hmm ok well the 1(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone is available as well but the quantities for minumum order that swid has to make is a lot.

As too legality- A lot of people do not understand this, so I figure I would address it quick, in the US the analog act cannot be be applied without intent to consume. So even though the federal law states that ANY substance substantially similar in structure or pharmacology to an illegal substance is an analog, there is enogh court precedence built up from previous trials that they must prove an intent to consume or misuse, so any chemical not explicitly named in US drug law, that is not an isomer or salt of an isomer of an illegal drug CAN be sold legally FOR sure, and I have debated this with people, but i have had a lawyer look into this for me as I was thinking of setting up a resale company.

excuse my rant.....

MBDB was actually commercially available from a few different US companies but it is currently unavailable since the DEA is claiming it to be a positional isomer of mde, which is not quite true but is in a certain sense. However this N-methylN-hydroxy analog would be 100% legal to posses and cook as long as it was not knowingly sold as a drug. I have no great wish to break the law so I am always looking out for a legal product. So I gather that nobody has any info human/rat or otherwise on the N-hydroxylated anaog of mbdb?

Rhodium_ do you think that it would be safe to assume that this stuff is active?   This may be an interesting project, and if it is indeed analogous to mbdb in terms of effects then we would have a winner here! :)

ApoStLe oF cHaoS

Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
07-14-03 16:26
No 447110
User Picture       Yes, it should be active

Yes, it should be active, or it will be the first N-Hydroxy analog of an active drug which isn't itself active.

del72
(Stranger)
07-14-03 20:11
No 447195
      Rhodium my friend, you just made my day 8-)...

Rhodium my friend, you just made my day cool

Good deal, well my friend is going to make this his next project after the current one is finished. He is a novice but as long as he has the mdp-2-butanone then the rest should be relatively simple. My friend says that he should have results to post by next month.
later

Enlightenment through chemistry

Kinetic
(Hive Bee)
07-14-03 22:09
No 447233
      Information

Or rather a question of stability.

How will you know you aren't producing any plain MBDB, which will form on the oh-so-inevitable N-OH decomposition, most likely during workup? Myself and a few others have separately looked into N-hydroxy PEA/amphetamines, and the general consensus seemed that no matter how careful, the chance of at least some* thermal decomposition to the parent amine is inevitable; in your case the parent amine is by all means a Schedule 1 substance.

In short, don't make this analogue if you expect to stay comfortably within the law. The odds are against even a skilled chemist working in a professional lab to completely avoid decomposition, however in his case that's fine; his decomposition product isn't a Schedule 1 substance. He will simply separate the amine during workup (after analysis has told him the impurity is present), while you are likely to produce a large amount of MBDB with only a trace of the desired N-OH product, yet you won't even know this until some of your product finds itself with the DEA for analysis.

Unless your decomposition product isn't a controlled drug itself, making N-OH's via all known reductive amination methods in a clandestine setting will almost surely get you in as much trouble as intentionally making the parent amine itself.

Some links on the subject, to read carefully:

Extensions and commentary for MDOH: http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal114.shtml

The whole thread, and, most importantly, the link I posted regarding UK analogues and a successful prosecution centering on the decomposition of N-OH DOB and 2C-B analogues: Post 405601 (Chimimanie: "DOM analogs (Can J chem 51 1402 1973)", Novel Discourse)

*Some, any is enough.

del72
(Stranger)
07-15-03 01:03
No 447283
      Yeah I had not done enough reading about them...

Yeah I had not done enough reading about them to have seen the decomposition thing. With MDOH though that is actually a schedule 1. When you go to the DEA's first page that lists the schedules it is not listed on one of the pages as a schedule 1 control substance but is listed under schedule 1 on another part of their site. I linked up via rhodiums site and and that is when I noticed that. However FLEA which is N-hydroxyMDMA as opposed to N-hydroxyMDA is not scheduled.

You are incorrect about one thing though. In the US MBDB is NOT a schedule 1 controled substance and has been frequently sold legaly from within the US(most likely not since the isomer statement was made). However in a statement to the UN the DEA said that they are controlling MBDB as a positional isomer of MDEA(do not have the URL but check erowid). Hoever the substitution is not a substitution on the aromatic ring rather a methyl group is switched from one side chain to another. In other words the DEA had to stretch their imaginations to make the statement that it was a positional isomer of MDEA. It is not explicately classified as any kind of controled substance in the US. That was the thing about the mbdbd that gave my friend comfort is that it is not specifically illegal in the US. I have doubts that the positional isomer thing would ever hold up in court if one were arrested with pure mbdb and got good representation. Yeah they would most likely drain your wallet chakra in legal fees, but you could most likely beat it. But if we have a product that is N-hydroxyMBDB clearly not scheduled, with residual MBDB also not scheduled then this is pretty safe- safer no doubt then simply cooking up mdma and meth like some bees talk about. there is no grey area when you are working with any of those. I would not go recommending that people sell this stuff over the web or anything, but bottom line is this, the ketone is not listed or watched to my knowledge. Methylhydroxylamine is easily bought while methylamine is list 1. So if we are doing a project then just ordering MeOHAm will save us the time and headache of making our own methylamine(however basic it may be). I guess that it interests my friend more because of the ease of obtaining the precursers than the fact that he wants to to make a 100% legal product. He likes projects in which a potentially legal escape route is waiting just in case.

ApoStLe oF cHaoS

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	All 7 posts		Subject: 1(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane novel use		Please login to post		Down


		del72 (Stranger) 07-14-03 12:44 No 447058				1(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane novel use
						Ok this may be a stupid question, but wtf, seems interesting to me. I was curious about a possible analogue of mbdb. In pihkal shulgin, makes FLEA via essentially the same route that one make mdma accept that he uses methylhydroxylamine in place of methylamine. So my question is this could one make a corresponding MBDB analogue using this same substitution(using methylhydroxylamine in place of methylamine). Yes methylamine is not that hard ot make but methylhydroxylamine is quite readily available for the asking at many places, MBDB is currently not available legally in the US anymore as it was "decreed" a positional isomer of mde by the DEA, but if the similarity in effects and dosage are noted in the mbdb analoge of FLEA as well than we have yet another goody that can be sold quazilegally in the research market. I am not an expert chemist so I am not sure why this would or would not work, so if anybody has any answers then I am all ears ;) Ok one more question that tfse has not answered for me. What can be done(if anything) with: 4-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone? Can this be put through some sort of alchemical transformation into a usefull product? thanks ApoStLe oF cHaoS



		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 07-14-03 12:52 No 447061				4-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone etc.
						Yes, you definitely can use methylhydroxylamine in the synthesis instead. I don't know how legal the product would be though. The 4-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone is pretty unusable, it is a lookalike product sold by unscrupulous research chem dealers to earn themselves some easy cash.



		del72 (Stranger) 07-14-03 13:17 No 447065				yeah I was kinda thinking that about the ...
						yeah I was kinda thinking that about the 4(3,4etc,etc,etc.) after I could not any info on it. I assumed right off the bat that it must be usefull for something ;) Hmm ok well the 1(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanone is available as well but the quantities for minumum order that swid has to make is a lot. As too legality- A lot of people do not understand this, so I figure I would address it quick, in the US the analog act cannot be be applied without intent to consume. So even though the federal law states that ANY substance substantially similar in structure or pharmacology to an illegal substance is an analog, there is enogh court precedence built up from previous trials that they must prove an intent to consume or misuse, so any chemical not explicitly named in US drug law, that is not an isomer or salt of an isomer of an illegal drug CAN be sold legally FOR sure, and I have debated this with people, but i have had a lawyer look into this for me as I was thinking of setting up a resale company. excuse my rant..... MBDB was actually commercially available from a few different US companies but it is currently unavailable since the DEA is claiming it to be a positional isomer of mde, which is not quite true but is in a certain sense. However this N-methylN-hydroxy analog would be 100% legal to posses and cook as long as it was not knowingly sold as a drug. I have no great wish to break the law so I am always looking out for a legal product. So I gather that nobody has any info human/rat or otherwise on the N-hydroxylated anaog of mbdb? Rhodium_ do you think that it would be safe to assume that this stuff is active? This may be an interesting project, and if it is indeed analogous to mbdb in terms of effects then we would have a winner here! :) ApoStLe oF cHaoS



		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 07-14-03 16:26 No 447110				Yes, it should be active
						Yes, it should be active, or it will be the first N-Hydroxy analog of an active drug which isn't itself active.



		del72 (Stranger) 07-14-03 20:11 No 447195				Rhodium my friend, you just made my day 8-)...
						Rhodium my friend, you just made my day Good deal, well my friend is going to make this his next project after the current one is finished. He is a novice but as long as he has the mdp-2-butanone then the rest should be relatively simple. My friend says that he should have results to post by next month. later Enlightenment through chemistry



		Kinetic (Hive Bee) 07-14-03 22:09 No 447233				Information
						Or rather a question of stability. How will you know you aren't producing any plain MBDB, which will form on the oh-so-inevitable N-OH decomposition, most likely during workup? Myself and a few others have separately looked into N-hydroxy PEA/amphetamines, and the general consensus seemed that no matter how careful, the chance of at least some* thermal decomposition to the parent amine is inevitable; in your case the parent amine is by all means a Schedule 1 substance. In short, don't make this analogue if you expect to stay comfortably within the law. The odds are against even a skilled chemist working in a professional lab to completely avoid decomposition, however in his case that's fine; his decomposition product isn't a Schedule 1 substance. He will simply separate the amine during workup (after analysis has told him the impurity is present), while you are likely to produce a large amount of MBDB with only a trace of the desired N-OH product, yet you won't even know this until some of your product finds itself with the DEA for analysis. Unless your decomposition product isn't a controlled drug itself, making N-OH's via all known reductive amination methods in a clandestine setting will almost surely get you in as much trouble as intentionally making the parent amine itself. Some links on the subject, to read carefully: Extensions and commentary for MDOH: http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal114.shtml The whole thread, and, most importantly, the link I posted regarding UK analogues and a successful prosecution centering on the decomposition of N-OH DOB and 2C-B analogues: Post 405601 (Chimimanie: "DOM analogs (Can J chem 51 1402 1973)", Novel Discourse) Some, any* is enough.



		del72 (Stranger) 07-15-03 01:03 No 447283				Yeah I had not done enough reading about them...
						Yeah I had not done enough reading about them to have seen the decomposition thing. With MDOH though that is actually a schedule 1. When you go to the DEA's first page that lists the schedules it is not listed on one of the pages as a schedule 1 control substance but is listed under schedule 1 on another part of their site. I linked up via rhodiums site and and that is when I noticed that. However FLEA which is N-hydroxyMDMA as opposed to N-hydroxyMDA is not scheduled. You are incorrect about one thing though. In the US MBDB is NOT a schedule 1 controled substance and has been frequently sold legaly from within the US(most likely not since the isomer statement was made). However in a statement to the UN the DEA said that they are controlling MBDB as a positional isomer of MDEA(do not have the URL but check erowid). Hoever the substitution is not a substitution on the aromatic ring rather a methyl group is switched from one side chain to another. In other words the DEA had to stretch their imaginations to make the statement that it was a positional isomer of MDEA. It is not explicately classified as any kind of controled substance in the US. That was the thing about the mbdbd that gave my friend comfort is that it is not specifically illegal in the US. I have doubts that the positional isomer thing would ever hold up in court if one were arrested with pure mbdb and got good representation. Yeah they would most likely drain your wallet chakra in legal fees, but you could most likely beat it. But if we have a product that is N-hydroxyMBDB clearly not scheduled, with residual MBDB also not scheduled then this is pretty safe- safer no doubt then simply cooking up mdma and meth like some bees talk about. there is no grey area when you are working with any of those. I would not go recommending that people sell this stuff over the web or anything, but bottom line is this, the ketone is not listed or watched to my knowledge. Methylhydroxylamine is easily bought while methylamine is list 1. So if we are doing a project then just ordering MeOHAm will save us the time and headache of making our own methylamine(however basic it may be). I guess that it interests my friend more because of the ease of obtaining the precursers than the fact that he wants to to make a 100% legal product. He likes projects in which a potentially legal escape route is waiting just in case. ApoStLe oF cHaoS

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