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All 9 posts Subject: sodium alkoxides from baking soda Please login to post Down

ning
(Hive Bee)
11-16-03 23:56
No 471280
      sodium alkoxides from baking soda

The NaOH procedure to sodium alkoxides found by Antocho & co. was a great step forward for the hive's technological level. For those who don't know, it went like this:

NaOH + HOEt <---> NaOEt + H2O

Normally the equilibrium of this equation is > 99.9% to the left, however, it can be shifted by continuously removing the water produced, which was done by a powerful dehydrating agent:

H2O + CaO ---> Ca(OH)2

People asked whether other, more common dehydrating agents like MgSO4, CaCl2, etc. would work, but it seems somewhat unlikely. Only dehydrating agents that will do are those which 1: Undergo chemical change when they absorb water (irreversible), and 2: Cannot be destroyed by the powerful base you are making. This rules out most commonly available dehydrating agents. Now, it does so happen that you can make CaO by roasting chalk (CaCO3) at circa 800 C, but if you are going to roast something, there is something better than CaO: Na2O.

H2O + Na2O ---> 2 NaOH

Na2O is a good dehydrating agent, and even better, for every water it encounters, it forms 2 more hydroxides. This will surely shift equilibrium all the way to the right, and produce high yields of alkoxide.
But how to make this Na2O?

By roasting baking soda, of course¡¦

NaHCO3 --100C--> Na2CO3 --400C--> Na2O

According to the merck index, Na2CO3 will start to lose CO2 at around 400 C. There is only one thing it could bee turning into¡¦

This also makes another useful modification to the hydroxide-->alkoxide procedure: Don't add any hydroxide. Don't dry the alcohol. Just buy some Everclear (95%), or 93% isopropyl, add your Na2O carefully, and the needed NaOH will be generated in situ from the water in the alcohol. Now isn't that much more elegant?

Something yet cooler: SODIUM METAL WITHOUT ELECTROLYSIS

See, at 500 C and higher, another reaction begins to occur:

2 Na2O ----> 2 Na + Na2O2

You all know what this means¡¦Metallic sodium from baking soda and a blowtorch! Now, there's plenty of interesting things to do with metallic Na¡¦If you want a good base for the drone enolate synth or whatever, I hear the sodium salt of DMSO is pretty strong indeed¡¦Or maybe somebee would have a use for NaNH3? Like making NaN3? Or somesuch thing?

Of course, sodium metal at 500 C will want to burn Very Much (don't spill any, heh heh), so a covered dish is pretty much essential. If the stuff combines with CO2 (not sure, really), a tube of hydrated lime might absorb that, and the oxygen will burn itself out, leaving only nitrogen.

If you leave the dish open to the air, it will only form Na2O2, as all the Na formed will turn instantly back to Na2O. But that's OK for certain purposes, because Na2O2 is useful too!
It's a peroxide. It can oxidize things. Or epoxidize things, perhaps?
When added to water, it forms 2 NaOH + H2O2. If acid is present, the H2O2 will be stable. What if there happens to be acetic acid around? Peracid from vinegar and baking soda? There's a thought¡¦ Ning wonders if it is added to conc. H2SO4, whether the following reaction will occur: Na2O2 + H2SO4 --> Na2SO4 + H2O2. Yikes! Pirahna solution! Or consider what might happen if one were to gas it with dry HCl? Fearsome concentrations of H2O2, never seen on the open market! Better not have any manganese or silver salts nearby!

Anyway, to sum up, we have a series of reactions that merit further exploration:

NaHCO3 ---> Na2CO3 ---> Na2O ---> Na + Na2O2

Take off what you need where you need it. Yield should be relatively easy to compute, based on mass and the quantity of gas generated by certain reactions, or titration. Certainly within the analytical reach of most bees.

I know it's true, cuz the merck index said so...

lugh
(Moderator)
11-17-03 01:28
No 471289
      Decomposition

If you read your Merck index a little more thorougly, you'll find that sodium monoxide decomposes into sodium peroxide and sodium at 400°C, therefore your proposed preparation is suspect wink It also advises to handle with tongs, and keep water from away from it, as the sodium monoxide will catch on fire in the presence of water frown Using a blowtorch to create sodium is a rather hazardous action, please start thinking about what you post more, a little research would have saved some time laugh If you had did some more research you would have found that thermal process for producing sodium involves heating the sodium salt with carbon, reducing the salt to the metal, see Patent FR694587, Patent US2774663, Patent US1837935, Patent GB486930, Patent FR830353, Patent US279047, Patent US2810636, Patent US1493126 and Patent US2465730 for details cool

Chemistry is our Covalent Bond

Polverone
(Hive Bee)
11-17-03 06:49
No 471318
      nice idea, no such luck

I like your search for OTC approaches. Unfortunately, I've already tried this with NaNO3 and Na2CO3 and didn't seem to get anything resembling sodium oxides. I used a steel can with a loose cover, in the hottest charcoal fire I could make. Maybe my methodology was flawed. If you get any encouraging results it'd be great to hear of them, of course.

For potassium and sodium production, also take a look at http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt2/c-0724.html and following pages as well as http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt2/c-0894.html.

It looks like very high temperature is a prerequisite. The metal vapor is condensed in a hydrocarbon solven, and you hope it does't catch fire. And if you make potassium the raw metal contains a good deal of explosive compounds; electrolysis sounds more attractive to me.

19th century digital boy

yellium
(I'm Yust a Typo)
11-17-03 08:43
No 471327
      ning: it might be a good idea to look up the...

ning: it might be a good idea to look up the melting point of sodium.

ning
(Hive Bee)
11-17-03 20:16
No 471416
      I did.

it's about 80 C, what's your point?
Boiling point is well near 800 degrees, that's why they like it as a heat transfer medium in nuclear reactors. Very wide range btw. melt & boil means large heat capacity.

That carbon one sounds good. Wouldn't have thought it would work...always though Na was too reactive.

And so what about the peroxides? lugh, did you read my post? I mentioned that! That's one useful thing! Easy H2O2! And why explosive? There's nothing to burn! (except the Na, heh heh...) That melting point thing might be turned to our advantage by allowing the sodium to pour off as it is formed, by clever apparatus design. And anyway, if we get metallic sodium, we have alkoxides anyway...any alkoxide you want...

Ning promises to research the details of this process further to discover its feasibility.

Polverone, did you use carbon?
Ning suspects that if the carbon path works, it may work like this:

2 Na2O --> 2 Na + Na2O2 : the usual, but...
2 Na2O2 + C --> 2 Na2O + CO2
repeat

until all the Na2O is consumed...Ning suspects it would be much easier for a peroxide to donate oxygen to carbon than for an oxide, making the carbon an "oxygen scavenger" so to speak. More research will be done, promise cool

moo
(Hive Bee)
11-17-03 21:28
No 471425
      And why explosive? There's nothing to burn!

And why explosive? There's nothing to burn!

Even an inorganic compound can explode through detonation without anything to burn, ammonium nitrate being an example. Haven't you gone through the explosives phase? wink

_{fear fear hate hate}

ning
(Hive Bee)
11-18-03 01:03
No 471478
      well....

I have smile ...never left it, really cool ...

But I still say they are different. NH4NO3 isn't "inorganic" to me...plenty to burn in there.

NH4NO3 ---> N2 + H2O + O? N2O?

but 2Na2O2 ---> 2Na2O + O2??? that's what it just came from!
supposedly, Na2O2 is actually more stable than Na2O...

Polverone
(Hive Bee)
11-20-03 08:44
No 471922
      not liquid!

Every description of carbothermic alkali metal production I've ever read has run above the boiling point of the metal formed. I was heating the salts alone, not in contact with carbon. I wasn't trying to make metallic sodium, just Na2O or Na2O2. I don't think it's a very promising route. If you can handle sodium vapor you can probably handle the chlorine produced by molten salt electrolysis, and the electrolysis is more straightforward. Still, I like reminders of what could be done in the 19th century, before large-scale electrochemistry, exotic catalysts, or OSHA wink .

19th century digital boy

ning
(Hive Bee)
11-21-03 04:46
No 472144
      As it would seem on your site...

I saw some vague pointers on the net that NaOH would undergo the reaction:

NaOH ---> Na2O + H2O

at around 400 C. Easy enough to test, of course. Just got to get out that crucible, and make some time.

Isn't it funny? They call them "base anhydrides"...that's exactly what the Na2O would be used as, wouldn't it??

Heh. Bee well, all members of the great swarming hive...

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	All 9 posts		Subject: sodium alkoxides from baking soda		Please login to post		Down


		ning (Hive Bee) 11-16-03 23:56 No 471280				sodium alkoxides from baking soda
						The NaOH procedure to sodium alkoxides found by Antocho & co. was a great step forward for the hive's technological level. For those who don't know, it went like this: NaOH + HOEt <---> NaOEt + H2O Normally the equilibrium of this equation is > 99.9% to the left, however, it can be shifted by continuously removing the water produced, which was done by a powerful dehydrating agent: H2O + CaO ---> Ca(OH)2 People asked whether other, more common dehydrating agents like MgSO4, CaCl2, etc. would work, but it seems somewhat unlikely. Only dehydrating agents that will do are those which 1: Undergo chemical change when they absorb water (irreversible), and 2: Cannot be destroyed by the powerful base you are making. This rules out most commonly available dehydrating agents. Now, it does so happen that you can make CaO by roasting chalk (CaCO3) at circa 800 C, but if you are going to roast something, there is something better than CaO: Na2O. H2O + Na2O ---> 2 NaOH Na2O is a good dehydrating agent, and even better, for every water it encounters, it forms 2 more hydroxides. This will surely shift equilibrium all the way to the right, and produce high yields of alkoxide. But how to make this Na2O? By roasting baking soda, of course¡¦ NaHCO3 --100C--> Na2CO3 --400C--> Na2O According to the merck index, Na2CO3 will start to lose CO2 at around 400 C. There is only one thing it could bee turning into¡¦ This also makes another useful modification to the hydroxide-->alkoxide procedure: Don't add any hydroxide. Don't dry the alcohol. Just buy some Everclear (95%), or 93% isopropyl, add your Na2O carefully, and the needed NaOH will be generated in situ from the water in the alcohol. Now isn't that much more elegant? Something yet cooler: SODIUM METAL WITHOUT ELECTROLYSIS See, at 500 C and higher, another reaction begins to occur: 2 Na2O ----> 2 Na + Na2O2 You all know what this means¡¦Metallic sodium from baking soda and a blowtorch! Now, there's plenty of interesting things to do with metallic Na¡¦If you want a good base for the drone enolate synth or whatever, I hear the sodium salt of DMSO is pretty strong indeed¡¦Or maybe somebee would have a use for NaNH3? Like making NaN3? Or somesuch thing? Of course, sodium metal at 500 C will want to burn Very Much (don't spill any, heh heh), so a covered dish is pretty much essential. If the stuff combines with CO2 (not sure, really), a tube of hydrated lime might absorb that, and the oxygen will burn itself out, leaving only nitrogen. If you leave the dish open to the air, it will only form Na2O2, as all the Na formed will turn instantly back to Na2O. But that's OK for certain purposes, because Na2O2 is useful too! It's a peroxide. It can oxidize things. Or epoxidize things, perhaps? When added to water, it forms 2 NaOH + H2O2. If acid is present, the H2O2 will be stable. What if there happens to be acetic acid around? Peracid from vinegar and baking soda? There's a thought¡¦ Ning wonders if it is added to conc. H2SO4, whether the following reaction will occur: Na2O2 + H2SO4 --> Na2SO4 + H2O2. Yikes! Pirahna solution! Or consider what might happen if one were to gas it with dry HCl? Fearsome concentrations of H2O2, never seen on the open market! Better not have any manganese or silver salts nearby! Anyway, to sum up, we have a series of reactions that merit further exploration: NaHCO3 ---> Na2CO3 ---> Na2O ---> Na + Na2O2 Take off what you need where you need it. Yield should be relatively easy to compute, based on mass and the quantity of gas generated by certain reactions, or titration. Certainly within the analytical reach of most bees. I know it's true, cuz the merck index said so...



		lugh (Moderator) 11-17-03 01:28 No 471289				Decomposition
						If you read your Merck index a little more thorougly, you'll find that sodium monoxide decomposes into sodium peroxide and sodium at 400°C, therefore your proposed preparation is suspect It also advises to handle with tongs, and keep water from away from it, as the sodium monoxide will catch on fire in the presence of water Using a blowtorch to create sodium is a rather hazardous action, please start thinking about what you post more, a little research would have saved some time If you had did some more research you would have found that thermal process for producing sodium involves heating the sodium salt with carbon, reducing the salt to the metal, see Patent FR694587, Patent US2774663, Patent US1837935, Patent GB486930, Patent FR830353, Patent US279047, Patent US2810636, Patent US1493126 and Patent US2465730 for details Chemistry is our Covalent Bond



		Polverone (Hive Bee) 11-17-03 06:49 No 471318				nice idea, no such luck
						I like your search for OTC approaches. Unfortunately, I've already tried this with NaNO3 and Na2CO3 and didn't seem to get anything resembling sodium oxides. I used a steel can with a loose cover, in the hottest charcoal fire I could make. Maybe my methodology was flawed. If you get any encouraging results it'd be great to hear of them, of course. For potassium and sodium production, also take a look at http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt2/c-0724.html and following pages as well as http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt2/c-0894.html. It looks like very high temperature is a prerequisite. The metal vapor is condensed in a hydrocarbon solven, and you hope it does't catch fire. And if you make potassium the raw metal contains a good deal of explosive compounds; electrolysis sounds more attractive to me. 19th century digital boy



		yellium (I'm Yust a Typo) 11-17-03 08:43 No 471327				ning: it might be a good idea to look up the...
						ning: it might be a good idea to look up the melting point of sodium.



		ning (Hive Bee) 11-17-03 20:16 No 471416				I did.
						it's about 80 C, what's your point? Boiling point is well near 800 degrees, that's why they like it as a heat transfer medium in nuclear reactors. Very wide range btw. melt & boil means large heat capacity. That carbon one sounds good. Wouldn't have thought it would work...always though Na was too reactive. And so what about the peroxides? lugh, did you read my post? I mentioned that! That's one useful thing! Easy H2O2! And why explosive? There's nothing to burn! (except the Na, heh heh...) That melting point thing might be turned to our advantage by allowing the sodium to pour off as it is formed, by clever apparatus design. And anyway, if we get metallic sodium, we have alkoxides anyway...any alkoxide you want... Ning promises to research the details of this process further to discover its feasibility. Polverone, did you use carbon? Ning suspects that if the carbon path works, it may work like this: 2 Na2O --> 2 Na + Na2O2 : the usual, but... 2 Na2O2 + C --> 2 Na2O + CO2 repeat until all the Na2O is consumed...Ning suspects it would be much easier for a peroxide to donate oxygen to carbon than for an oxide, making the carbon an "oxygen scavenger" so to speak. More research will be done, promise



		moo (Hive Bee) 11-17-03 21:28 No 471425				And why explosive? There's nothing to burn!
						And why explosive? There's nothing to burn! Even an inorganic compound can explode through detonation without anything to burn, ammonium nitrate being an example. Haven't you gone through the explosives phase? _{fear fear hate hate}



		ning (Hive Bee) 11-18-03 01:03 No 471478				well....
						I have...never left it, really... But I still say they are different. NH4NO3 isn't "inorganic" to me...plenty to burn in there. NH4NO3 ---> N2 + H2O + O? N2O? but 2Na2O2 ---> 2Na2O + O2??? that's what it just came from! supposedly, Na2O2 is actually more stable than Na2O...



		Polverone (Hive Bee) 11-20-03 08:44 No 471922				not liquid!
						Every description of carbothermic alkali metal production I've ever read has run above the boiling point of the metal formed. I was heating the salts alone, not in contact with carbon. I wasn't trying to make metallic sodium, just Na2O or Na2O2. I don't think it's a very promising route. If you can handle sodium vapor you can probably handle the chlorine produced by molten salt electrolysis, and the electrolysis is more straightforward. Still, I like reminders of what could be done in the 19th century, before large-scale electrochemistry, exotic catalysts, or OSHA . 19th century digital boy



		ning (Hive Bee) 11-21-03 04:46 No 472144				As it would seem on your site...
						I saw some vague pointers on the net that NaOH would undergo the reaction: NaOH ---> Na2O + H2O at around 400 C. Easy enough to test, of course. Just got to get out that crucible, and make some time. Isn't it funny? They call them "base anhydrides"...that's exactly what the Na2O would be used as, wouldn't it?? Heh. Bee well, all members of the great swarming hive...

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