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	All 85 posts		Subject: must heroin lead to addiction?		Please login to post		Down

		aztec (exotic beauty) 08-15-04 04:24 No 525474				must heroin lead to addiction?
						i have met this m.d. (who had previously treated me for a hurt limb) with a seemingly unending supply of heroin. he is a nice person, but seems to rely heavily on this substance. until recently, this compound has never attracted me. he claims that i could do this stuff on a recreational basis with experienced guidance and not develop an addiction. is this possible? i probably sound naïve, but he seems so together and functional. plus, the stuff is everywhere. does anyone have extensive experience in this area? Free Speech Free Choice
		LoW_JacK (Hive Martyr) 08-15-04 05:44 No 525477				what the fuck??
						Where do you live , the land of OZ?  Where in this world does an MD treat a patient with diacetylmorphine(heroin)? Not that I dont believe you, but, I dont. This is my hang up and not yours so, please, tell me where your hailing from. I've heard of heroin maintenance for addicts, but this is a new one for me. Heroin is NEVER prescribed to a non-addict for the simple fact that even the strongest ,most will powered, anti-drug person will 9 times out of 9 1/2 fall victim to heroins grip. It's deemed of no medicinal value almost everywhere. Then again, if your posting from Pakistan or Afghanistan then fuck off until you can post from a non-heroin producing nation. All praise due to allah. http://www.dodgeit.com
		aztec (exotic beauty) 08-15-04 05:58 No 525478				not prescribed
						i guess you got confused with my mention that he is an m.d. this has nothing to do with his plentiful bounty. i only mentioned that he was an m.d. because he claims with experienced guidance, heroin need not become addictive. and lowjack? i don't care if you believe me dear. although the second to last line in your post was hilarious. Free Speech Free Choice
		LoW_JacK (Hive Martyr) 08-15-04 06:22 No 525482				sorry bout'dat aztec.
						sorry bout'dat aztec. It did seem as though you were getting it prescribed. My mistake. Being a dragon chasing idiot, I firmly believe that ANYONE that has a taste of heroin often enough and of a high enough quality WILL become a member of it's fan club. Regardless of whos holding your hand through the dance. It's just way too addictive to even consider. If your taking it, please think about what comes to mind when you think of the word 'Heroin'. Usually, its either the homeless man sleeping in the alley way or other such horrible outcomes. It's not always like that for everyone. Some peoples families stick their heads in the sand and hope their loved ones would never do that to themselves. Some people dont have a supportive environment at all and wind up turning tricks at the local truckstop for $10 a blowjob. That last one is a scarey scene and one which makes me wonder how the ladies I've seen talk of such madness got that low. The moral is this, the M.D. better hold your hand real tight and only administer heroin to you a total of no more than 1 or 2 times a week, or else he's leading you into harms way. I wish I'd never ever smoked that shit. It seemed so innocent. It isnt. Why if I may ask is he set on treating a hurt limb with such an illegal powerful narcotic?  Hydrocodone wont take away the pain?  Any real doctor would go about it that way. They love that shit Vicoden. It's their answer to everything. Bad back, take a vicoden. Headaches? Take a Darvecet. It sounds suspect to me as to why he's giving you an illegal addictive drug. Is he looking to get his liscence taken away? Does he even have one? Is he a fucking quack?  I'd take the drug and sell it or all out refuse and extort him for giving it to you. MD's are rich and one that fucking careless needs to be taught not to get people hooked on drugs like smack. Because they cant control it. Nobody can. It's got a mind of its own and superman would buckle to its effect givin enough time. My 2 cents. http://www.dodgeit.com
		wimpy (Hive Bee) 08-15-04 09:34 No 525502				from my experience, believe it or not, it is...
						from my experience, believe it or not, it is theoretically possible to use herion now and then without becoming addicted. if one uses it once or twice a year, and only once or twice, it will work. but, well, there's always a cause to have one out of the line and then one still might believe it's no problem to him for a very long time. In my opinion heroin is one of  (or even THE) most beautiful drug on earth, but it is also quite perfidous on the other side. One can use it for some days and when the money or the supply is gone he can detox without too big problems. this might work for years, but normaly there will be the point where it - oops - don't works anymore, and that's where it begins to bet not that much fun anymore. i also knew some people who where doing so since i know them, 10 - to 20 years now, but there's only one left able doing so, some others are dead or addicted now. although this might sound kind of dramatising, believe me, it's true, and the only way in my opinion is to use it, as said above, not more than once or twice a year WITHOUT ANY exceptions. it simply like that: even if beeing addicted must not be that bad as it sounds - under the circumstances one has to live in the "western world" beeing addicted to drugs as illegalized as heroin really sucks, at least after a few years. SWIM's dreaming of a dream where he has enough for a lifetime. Even if it would bring some minor problems with it like -how can i go abroad- and so on it would be the only way he would start "opiifing" again. SWIM guesses that would make life really ok again :) - seems if one has developed a real affinity to opiates he might never get rid of it. at least SWIM feels like that. He can live clean but he possibly will always still dream of it. -Ouh, how declamatory :)-
		calcium (Hive Bee) 08-15-04 11:17 No 525509				Dear Aztec...
						Wimpy is wrong. You may be able to satisfy the addiction you will aquire without losing your home and job, but realize that your MD friend is a functional heroin addict. No one leaves the fan club.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 08-15-04 15:34 No 525532				Skeptical at best!
						Skeptical at best! he claims that i could do this stuff on a recreational basis with experienced guidance and not develop an addiction. Excuse my skeptisism here, but that claim is the most rediculous thing I've heard in a long time. As a matter of fact, it sounds more like some idiot is trying to lock you into something where you'll become dependent on them through the use of narcotics. Noone knows anothers true intent. Maybe this guys a stalker or a PIMP and is just smooth on the surface. Maybe he feels he'll have you all to himself if you do become hooked and rely on him as the supplier. Not a single human being on earth can control how another will react to addictive substances. Let's say you do like it more than he'd like you to. Can he stop you from getting a nick anytime you feel like escaping aside from his well planned therapeudic regime? And I quote-----> "plus, the stuff is everywhere." I just don't see it going down the way he claims! And for them to insist that they can control how you're system will react under EXPERIENCEDguided dosaging is complete and utter BS if you want my opinion. I've never tried heroin and never will because based on other's experiences and descriptions of euphoria while partaking, "I KNOW I'LL LIKE IT". To the point of not being able to do without it. The closest I've ever come to taking heroin was sampling a friends methadone at his insistance. I couldn't get past the nausous effect enough to enjoy it! But I'm hypersensitive to sedative effects from any downer. IMHO, I smell a rat! But that is just me! Aztec sweetie...Don't set yerself UP like that! Remember, it's not, "Hi, how are you?" it's "How high are you?"
		abominator (Hive Bee) 08-15-04 15:34 No 525533				Physical Addiction
						When comparing heroin to any other drug one must take into consideration that it is a physically addictive drug, unlike meth or marijuana which are only phsychologically addictive.  Physical withdrawls from a substance are nasty and something no decent person should ever have to go through, right LoW_JacK? It does take time to get one's system "addicted", withdrawls won't happen overnight.  It is all really up to the user and in the beginning seems all users have control over their habit, but out of experience 90% of the stories end up with the same outcome, addiction. If the M.D. has an endless supply he is not worried about the outcome of his habit, he could probably easily supply himself with ample methadone if his supply got cut off.  This could explain his eagerness to let you try it and that it can bee controlled.  Like LJ said, even Superman would falter after some H.   Gluecifer69
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 08-15-04 15:41 No 525534				nonsense
						i don't know anyone (friends) who hasn't had heroin; nor do i know any heroin addicts. it can bee used casually; and is. this sounds like demon advocacy, but its actually just true. and these other posts sounded absolutely ridiculous to me. i wouldn't shoot it. that's more asking for trouble; though i have mmany friends who even do that occasionly. far as i've seen, crack is the drug that fits those descriptions. and, of course, heroin has plenty of medical relevancy. its absurd that morphine should bee used instead for severe pain.
		wimpy (Hive Bee) 08-15-04 16:05 No 525537				Hey calcium, what do you mean with "wrong
						Hey calcium, what do you mean with "wrong"? I really don't want to bicker with you, i just like to know - sure, one can have a different view on the subject, but all i said is my experience and many other peoples i know and knew, too. Ok, i was a junkie for nearly ten years (i don't like to accent this every time, it's poseing somehow, just do it so one can see i'm not only morticing stuff i read in those fucking amazing drug books :)), but i know many other people who used (and still use) h in the described pattern (once or twice a year). also many other people who wheren't able to do so, but i mentioned that in my post above, too. - Beware of the Morphail Effect! -
		wareami (Hive Addict) 08-15-04 16:48 No 525542				Fallacy's and myths!
						Spudbuddy: So what you are saying, more importantly, what I am seeing you say, is that shooting horse has a greater potential for addiction than smoking or snorting smack. I am correct? If so....that is bullshit! It's like saying an alky can drink beer or wine but must refrain from hard alcohol and they'll never have a drinking problem. We are discussing a physically dependent substance that once an intake threshold is reached, that person is defenseless against it's additive properties. It can't be compared to crack or any other substance. The closest comparison might be nicotine addiction but even that wouldn't fit the bill. Many make the mistake in believing that the way the consume a substance will help them avoid addiction. And while this is true for the most part...they can't get that monkey off their back if they LIKE IT enough to step over that threshold! Just because "Joe Blow" has used smack for ten years without any ill consequences doesn't give everybody licence to try it without falling victim to addiction. Like I said....noone can manipulate anothers Like or dislike for a substance and if addiction occurs on a physical level...the drug will dictate the bodies need. And the mind will go to any lengths to keep from feeling the discomfort/sickness. If it were as you say...there would be no need for methadone clinics because everyone could regulate their own use of heroin. They CAN'T once they cross that use/abuse threshold! It's that simple! I for one wouldn't set myself up in the HOPES I could control it. Smoking or snorting smack may provide a level of temperance/control over a longer period of time than shooting it. But don't be fooled into thinking that you can't become hooked on a drug that produces euphoric effects based solely on the method of intake! I've known countless addicts that never IV'ed heroin that told me they started out with recreational use and wound UP becoming a slave to it when they least expected it. Remember, it's not, "Hi, how are you?" it's "How high are you?"
		Trenchcoat (Hive Bee) 08-15-04 16:59 No 525543				IMHO once a week is about the most you can do...
						IMHO once a week is about the most you can do heroin without slowly whirlpooling down the tube. Heroin's bad. Feels good but so bad. I personally keep this rule with the stuff: no more than once a month, ever, no exceptions. Better loving through chemistry.
		SilverSurfer (Hive Bee) 08-15-04 18:44 No 525557				all for life
						But if u have unlimited supply and enough money why should one care about beeing member of the fan club for life its not as toxic as lots of stimulants and u can still do ur job smart and functional. I personally will start a stylish old fashioned opium pipe habit from 50+ (thats the age im going to retire) and i cant see how a nasal heroin habit would harm if u got a well paid job and some quality source which wont run dry, i know there are lots of sucessful people that are heroin addicts. The only purpose of your life may be to serve as a warning to others http://www.despair.com
		abominator (Hive Bee) 08-15-04 19:47 No 525570				No nonsense from me, just experience
						Charlie if you would notice in my post, I mentioned that herion use and maintainence were up to the user to control.  If a user maintains a casual relationship with the drug, only consuming two or three times a month, then maybe they would not beecome addicted.  I don't know many people, hell anybody, that fits that description. I can't even imagine someone using casually, unless it is to fill a void left from some other addiction/substance.  I do know people such as the M.D. Aztec refers to, that are functional addicts. Just as Wareami said, if H were so easy to control, then why the need for methadone clinics?  Hell, LoW_JacK's story alone should bee enough for a bee to draw their own conclusions.  His story seems to mirror so many others... including my own. To say that the other posts were nonsense, well that is just nonsense.  I think you have taken my and other posts in the wrong way, I never made the claim that H was like crack, in the sense that it would cause instant addiction.  It takes time to become dependant on the substance. Mine is taken from personal experience. Charlie, I can understand what you are saying.  Maybe you think that I am over reacting. However, messing with herion is like playing with fire, sooner or later you will probably get burned.  I don't like to advise others to do something that is potentially dangerous to their livelyhood.   I'd like to have her right there on floor with the 'ol in/out, real savage.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 08-15-04 21:05 No 525587				Just for the record...
						I am not saying that there aren't functional heroin addicts. And I'm not saying that everyone that tries it will get hooked. I am saying that heroin is powerfully addictive to any that innocently and unknowingly cross that threshold from casual(once or bi-monthly)use to a daily habit. I still smell a rat no matter what anybody says here. Especially an MD offering this keenly enticing heroin maintenence plan to a beautiful bee that he himself happens to be on with an unlimited supply and no ill effects! So to answer the question that this thread poses... "must heroin lead to addiction"? It depends on the individual! I personally care too much for aztec as a friend to see her caught up in something that she may regret for the rest of her life if things take a turn for the worse. All because she put her faith and trust in someone with possibly less than genuine intentions! Remember, it's not, "Hi, how are you?" it's "How high are you?"
		aztec (exotic beauty) 08-16-04 01:07 No 525614				sobering thoughts
						yes, i should consider if there are other motivations behind his eagerness to have me experience this compound. i sensed his eagerness as being derived from a desire to share how wonderful this compound can be. on the other hand, it is his seemingly endless supply of heroin and not my own.  who is to say that he will share it forever? anyway, thanks to all. i always believed heroin was a one way ticket to addiction until he began to discuss at length the possibilities. suffice to say, i'll move a little slower in this area. slower than he would like i am sure, but slow enough to satisfy my friend wareami. edit: i didn't even consider that i would administer it differently than he does: intravenously. not that i didn't know that it was administered in other ways. apparently, it is cleaner and more efficienct via i.v. Free Speech Free Choice
		k0rd (Stranger) 08-16-04 03:34 No 525638				it is a beautiful compound
						it's wonderful. especially the first time... it is dangerously addictive. personally i wish i didn't know what it felt like, because i compare everything to it. although i doubt the good dr. has any cruel intentions (he probably wishes to share something he holds dear), i would not try it if i were you. although if you were to do *any* drug, IV is definately the best way.. both in terms of cost effectiveness and health (as long as you use CLEAN disposable needles). after all, when you go to the hospital with strep throat, they don't tell you to "snort this penicillin", do they?
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 08-16-04 05:32 No 525683				let me add some disclaimers:
						i should have elaborated on my post to avoid confusion. wareami; i wasn't implying that shoooting is more addictive than other routes; though, in truth, i know many people who shoot heroin once a month or more, and aren't junkies. what i should have said is something like this: if you find yourself needing to shoot heroin for the buz, its quite possible that you might bee of the personality type that is more prone to addiction in the first place...beecause it is a more extreme experience than the alternatives. its like saying that people who like to get drunk once a week might bee safer from beecoming alcoholics if they do it with beer instead of everclear. for sure, i'm not advocating toying with heroin to see if you might bee a potential junkie...not at all...i'm just saying that plenty of people are able to use the stuff on a casual basis. i know many of them; some in their sixties; who have never beecome addicts. for people that are likely candidates for addiction, such moderation is less likely. shooters frequently tend to bee the addict personalities. even so, i know some people who shoot smack occasionly, and have, for decades. i know people who smoke 4 ciggarettes a week, and have, for years. this is true; as is the above. simply true. we have to decide what sort of person we are to assess the risks. i also know a few casual crack users...though these are truly rare. i'm sure as fuck not advocating plunging into these experiences as though the potential for addiction isn't real...what i'm saying is that its quite possible to occassionly use the most addictive substances known to man without sucumbing to habituation. and in general, needles seem to bee the realm of the type that is liklier to succumb. smoking is next. especially with coke and meth. if your will is weak, don't tread in dangerous waters. personaly, i never liked opiation or cocaine enough to pursue a carreer with it. lsd is the only drug i've ever gotten addicted to and needed everyday for years...even though it isn't addictive. so they say. marijuana is the next most addictive substance i've ever had, simply beecause i like what it does. i've never been drawn to stupors. i enjoy percceiving the world with my eyes open. we're all different. we need to have a handle on our own inclinations to avoid pitfalls of any sort. so... bee carefull. but don't accept blanket statements about drugs, either. if you have no life to beegin with, its likely that drugs will dominate your life, should you open to it. but if you like your life, you simply won't allow a drug to steal it..regardless of the drug or the means of ingestion. is that better, wareami, ol' bud?
		Barium (Heavyweight Chempion(eer)) 08-16-04 09:48 No 525719				Well
						Potato said: LSD is the only drug i've ever gotten addicted to and needed everyday for years...even though it isn't addictive How often did you take acid during those years? Anything can be addictive to a person having a addict personality. Period! Aztec honey, to me it sounds an awful lot like this quack is simply trying really hard to get you in a position where he has easy access to your panties. Being a man I can sniff out a male creep like that more easy than you. As you say why should you have free access to the supply for eternity. It usually doesn't work like that. Opiates and opioides can produce a wonderful effect, but in the end they are just a fucking waste of time. Have you ever seen a heroin user doing something of value with his time? Severe Aztecoholic and President of Sooty's fanclub - Sooty for President!!
		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 08-16-04 09:53 No 525720				> yes, i should consider if there are other
						> yes, i should consider if there are other motivations behind his eagerness to > have me experience this compound. I wonder what they might be? > i sensed his eagerness as being derived from a desire to share how wonderful > this compound can be. on the other hand, it is his seemingly endless supply of > heroin and not my own.  who is to say that he will share it forever? The question being asked shouldn't be "will he supply me for the next 30 years so I don't have to worry about it" (which of course won't happen), you should rather ask yourself "do I really need such an addiction"? Are you really that bored with life that you are willing to take such chances? He currently is a functioning addict. That might change rapidly as soon as he is busted, loses his license and job, or by other reasons. Do not believe that he will be able to go on like that forever. > anyway, thanks to all. i always believed heroin was a one way ticket to > addiction until he began to discuss at length the possibilities. suffice to > say, i'll move a little slower in this area. slower than he would like i am > sure, but slow enough to satisfy my friend wareami. Maybe you should opt for a U turn instead. > edit: i didn't even consider that i would administer it differently than he > does: intravenously. not that i didn't know that it was administered in other > ways. apparently, it is cleaner and more efficienct via i.v. Yeah, it will also assure you will be 100% hooked much faster. Use your brain. Don't do it. I'm going to be brutally honest with you: I don't know you, but considering what I know about you and what I heard from H addicts who went through addiction you certainly aren't the one that can handle this drug. It has broken many strong people, and it will eventually kill you. Is life that boring that you want to take such chances for a small buzz? BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm
		Greenblue (Stranger) 08-16-04 12:03 No 525729				Tsk tsk.
						Most of the posts in this thread are pitiable. CharliePotato is the only guy who makes any sense with what he writes. I have noticed a lot of people seem to be members of the religion of repetitively warning against the unparalleled evil of heroin. Addiction remains 100% an issue of personality. Some people can become addicted to almost anything, while some people have no liability to addiction whatever. Personally, I have almost no "addiction" or "yearning" after having used opioids like codeine or fentanyl, just at most a sense of flushing or irritability. And I certainly have no yearning for N-methylamphetamine or other stimulants. Conversely, I have been thinking for about 5 years how I might stop smoking marijuana daily, and I still haven't found a way of quitting it. Now, other people who have smoked a lot of grass don't have to smoke at least two joints every day just to get a sense of purpose in life, and that's why I don't go around badmouthing Cannabis and telling people how addictive grass is and how careful they have to be and better not to start at all, like some fucking broken record. I don't do this, because I know it's just me. It's because I am the way I am, that this stuff bites on me. I like the puff. I like the breathing in and out. I like the creativity and sense of liberated perspective it brings me. I have become dependent on these things, and I am affraid I'll start to fall apart if I stop using it. I use it as a pickmeup, but I use it with a frequency and need which has become a thorn in the side of my pride. That's all the addiction is to me, a wounded pride. Somehow, I think many people wish for a sense of independence, of being fully self-sufficient, and never feeling obliged to depend on external factors for their sense of security or functioning or ability. The "problem" of addiction, in general, seems to be nothing more than a realization that one needs something to feel good. When the genetic therapy which will make everybody happy and well-adjusted arrives, many parents will flock to have their fetuses "fixed," and no one will call those kids addicted, even if they would be total fuckups like the rest of us if they were deprived of their self-synthesized optimized regimen of endorphines, SSRIs, tranquilizers, methylphenidate and nootropics or whatever for a while. The only real problem of addiction, and the only time it really becomes an issue, is when you run out of your favourite pasttime. If you never run out of it, then good for you because any worries you ever had were all for naught. But since all people are unique, it would be silly to claim that diacetylmorphine, heroin, is not addictive, since there are bound to exist personalities to which the particular pharmacologic profile of heroin is particularly pleasurable and or useful. But it would be just as crazy to claim that diacetylmorphin "is addictive," since there are bound to exist personalities to which the pharmacological profile of heroin is repulsive and or detrimental, and who would never like to either repeat the experience nor be exposed to chronic administration of the substance. There might be people in the world for whom something like heroin is their only method of medicating their depression which would otherwise have killed them by now. Depression has something like a 30% mortality rate from suicide. I am not a psychiatrist, I don't know these things with expertise. But the point is, neither are the other malcontents who have lamented the horrors of heroin or opiates in general in this thread. And it certainly seems correct beyond any controversy, as per the medical literature, that heroin has analgesic properties superior to those of morphine, and has a place in the arsenal of the physician, especially for treating postoperative pain and in cancer. Arguing against this seems rather silly. Condemning people for liking or needing what you don't like, or don't need, or don't like to need, is not respectable in any way. Trying to make people feel bad for feeling good is evil. But as said, this is a religious issue for some people, and it is almost as bad to just ignore these people's emotions on the matter, which are usually truthful expressions of genuinely felt emotions and beliefs, albeit always irrational and unscientific as they are, since they are right in the sense that this is the right expression of their religous beliefs, and every man is entitled to his own religious conviction, including any desire to lable certain chemicals "evil" or "the most addictive substance ever."
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 08-16-04 14:59 No 525750				i took it beefore going to sleep
						weird, eh? barium; i took it when i woke up, to. it kept me in a state of clarity or grace, like a zen monk; extremely seductive. yet i knew that state was not genuine beecause it required something from the exterior to maintain. when i finally ran out, it was devestating...a fall from grace; even if it was a false grace i feel from. btw, not an addiction for which there is much of a support group. in fact, nobody would have even beelieved it,  much less helped me thru it.
		Barium (Heavyweight Chempion(eer)) 08-16-04 15:48 No 525756				Even wierder then
						I was under the impression that a full tolerance to LSD was built up rather quickly (matter of days). If that is true then you must be a rare individual indeed who after daily intake during years still got effects. Excuse me for being a bit - how shall we shay - sceptical. Severe Aztecoholic and President of Sooty's fanclub - Sooty for President!!
		wimpy (Hive Bee) 08-16-04 17:47 No 525770				hey greenblue, i would underwrite most of what
						hey greenblue, i would underwrite most of what you say, but: addictive personality or not, there's a difference between grass and H:) If i where in the position of this doctor (endless, life long supply) i'd start again rather today than tomorrow, but one can't just embezzle the risks of something just because he likes it - that's not better than those people you where writing about in your post who try to demonise it by all costs. I'd say beeing addicted to it with a safe, steady supply isn't worse than living without it (probably less? :)), but i can also say beeing a junkie depending on street connections without beeing very rich really suck,sucks,sucks! anyway, just had to say this - Beware of the Morphail Effect! -
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 08-16-04 21:37 No 525796				depends on you
						I agree with the big tuber on the block. Its a substance I've done and walked  away from and a substance I knew from my first introduction that I had to keep at a respectable distance. Reading this thread made me feel like doing some, and I haven't done any in eight or nine years. Does that give you an idea of what I am talking about? Can you try it without becoming addicted? Certainly. Can you use it without becoming addicted? Far less likely, particularly with a ready source interested in supplying your desires.  Can you be a functional addict? Probably, but why would you want to be?  Should you try it? Your call. It does make you want more. You will never really want to say "never again" and you will always want to think you can do it one more time without harm. Is it overpowering? No. Is it something that is easy to forget? No. Would I recommend it? No. I can't be any more direct than that. mostly harmless
		honey_badger (Stranger) 08-17-04 03:03 No 525838				heroin
						Opiates put your mind in a vegetative state? Do you really expand your mind on opiates? No you fucking don’t, why you would want to take this over glorified pain killer (for fun) Aztec is beyond me. I thought about taking morphine tabs to make sure I went to sleep on my meth the same day, but not for euphoria or for an 'experience' Want some real advice vain one? Good. Read what shuglin thinks of opiates...and consider it epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		superman (Hive Bee) 08-17-04 03:52 No 525840				"I have almost no "addiction"...
						"I have almost no "addiction" or "yearning" after having used opioids like codeine or fentanyl, just at most a sense of flushing or irritability" you sound like a prime candidate for heroin addiction!   this opiate is not quite like the rest IMO.   much more addictive. a steady supply is one thing you do not want,   nor do you want to ever do successive doses in a single day.   the way i keep myself away from addiction is by doing whatever drugs i want, smack included, but only a single dose if there's good addiction potential. another helpfull method is to never buy the risky(addiction wise) drugs.    make this a golden rule!!!!    if you want a little H,   trade a dose of something else for a dose H. trust me when i advise not to try it out without a solid set of rules for yourself beforehand.    i parted with many thousands of dollars before i defined these restrictions for myself.   and it seems to work!!
		aztec (exotic beauty) 08-17-04 08:53 No 525867				aztec's a chicken
						when i was a dancer and all the girls were taking advantage of our employer's offer to partially fund breast implants, i declined. i tried to tell the girls it was only because i wouldn't stand for being a "product," but everyone knew that it was mostly because i couldn't bear to be cut. when the girls would make appointments for private parties on the sly, i would say that it was against the rules but they knew that i was afraid of finding myself in over my head. and now, i am secretly relieved that the majority of bees believe it is a mistake. this guy is functional but i have no discipline. os even knows it and what in the hell does he know? when i told him tonight that it wasn't going to happen he became a bit irritated. he told me that i was a coward who was going to be afraid of her own shadow for the rest of her life. he used my own words against me. gee whiz, i felt as if i were in grade school again. it was only then that i realized that i had made the right decision. thanks bees. it helps to have the pros and the cons. if i had only received cons, i would have been skeptical. xoxo Free Speech Free Choice
		Greenblue (Stranger) 08-17-04 12:04 No 525874				People are different.
						For some people, opiates are mind-expanding. You guys are just too ordinary and too ignorant to know any of this. Where would rock music be without heroin? Pretty fucking nowhere. And why would anyone want to hear what some old broken record like Shulgin writes about something he tried once in the navy? Besides, as I recall when I read PiHKAL originally, he never exactly wrote anything worse about it than the fact that it simply wasn't his type of drug. So fucking what? Neither, apparently, is ketamine, nor marijuana, but the sycophant groupies around here seem to conveniently forget this when they ally themselves with him. Shulgin is a nice guy in some ways, but he is not perfect. Learn to think for yourself, rather than having Shulgin do your thinking for you. Besides, Ann probably does most of his thinking for him, so you are most likely actually following HER advice. They are a couple you know. Couple with a capital C. Remember they are "strongly prejudiced against drugs which cause one to lose touch with one's body." But go ahead, follow the multitude to do evil as you pitifuls always do. Superman: "you sound like a prime candidate for heroin addiction!" Luckily, your opinion is of no consequence in that matter.
		Greenblue (Stranger) 08-17-04 12:57 No 525880				Shulgin on opiates
						Well, what do you know? I guess it's all there on page 2 of the introductory chapter to PiHKAL. I guess this confirms pretty much exactly, 100%, absolutely without doubt what I was saying all along and disproves all the mindless lunacy otherwise expounded around here. So there. "I personally have chosen some drugs to be of sufficient value to be worth the risk; others, I deem not to be of sufficient value. For instance, I use a moderate amount of alcohol, generally in the form of wine, and - at present time - my liver function tests are completely normal. I do notsmoke tobacco. I used to, quite heavily, then gave it up. It was not the health risk that swayed me, but rather the fact that I had become completely dependent upon it. That was, in my view, a case of the price being unacceptably high." (For anyone that has eyes to see, the above mirrors what I wrote about my feelings towards Cannabis.) "Each such decision is my own, based on what I know of the drug and what I know about myself." (The above mirrors exactly what I wrote about not taking Shulgin's word for it but deciding for yourself.) "Among the drugs that are currently illegal, I have chosen not to use marijuana, as I feel the light-headed intoxication and benign alteration of consciousness does not adequately compensate for an uncomfortable feeling that I am wasting time." "I have tried heroin. This drug, of course, is one of the major concerns in our society, at the present time. In me, it produces a dreamy peacefulness, with no rough edges of worry, stress or concern. But there is also a loss of motivation, of alertness, and of the urge to get things done. It is not any fear of addiction that causes me to decide against heroin; it is the fact that, under its influence, nothing seems particularly important to me." Well, gee, that is "what Shulgin says about opiates." No fear of addiction, not much worse or less useful than marijuana. So if we all take your hero's words as gospel, then the danger of heroin is apparently negligible. The kink is, of course, that all the mediocre spirits in this world are not like Shulgin, and what goes for Shulgin doesn't necessarily go that well for you. That's why you have to learn, some day, to think for yourself instead of arguing on the basis of old cliches with no basis in science or personal experience.
		moo (Hive Addict) 08-17-04 14:28 No 525901				Funny
						If the opinion of A. Shulgin about heroin doesn't matter, then why did you have to bring it up? fear fear hate hate
		aztec (exotic beauty) 08-17-04 16:11 No 525914				greenblue
						you added the final comment that convinced me.   Addiction remains 100% an issue of personality. Some people can become addicted to almost anything, while some people have no liability to addiction whatever. Personally, I have almost no "addiction" or "yearning" after having used opioids like codeine or fentanyl, just at most a sense of flushing or irritability. And I certainly have no yearning for N-methylamphetamine or other stimulants. that comment really intimidated me as i know that my addiction potential is much higher than yours. For some people, opiates are mind-expanding. But go ahead, follow the multitude to do evil as you pitifuls always do. you sound like my disgruntled friend. believe me, the stuff sounds spell binding. and i really want to try it. but what if i can't stop without outside help? you seem to understand this better than anyone: Somehow, I think many people wish for a sense of independence, of being fully self-sufficient, and never feeling obliged to depend on external factors for their sense of security or functioning or ability. The "problem" of addiction, in general, seems to be nothing more than a realization that one needs something to feel good. os' question of "are you that bored?" also helped me decide. that was such an outrageoous statement. boredom is the least of my problems right now. i'm not having the easiest time. maybe i am trying to escape reality. thanks everyone. Free Speech Free Choice
		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 08-17-04 19:48 No 525941				> I guess it's all there on page 2 of the...
						> I guess it's all there on page 2 of the introductory chapter to PiHKAL. So you managed to read page two of PIHKAL and post about it. Congratulations. Maybe you should read it again and try to understand what he said, it seems like you got it quite wrong. Doesn't it suck to be corrected on English language understanding issues by a non-native English speaker? > you added the final comment that convinced me. Sheesh! Seems like you got it all wrong too. Didn't you hear what greenblue said? U turn. Full 180 degrees. Now! Get yourself some H and get high. It's benign, harmless and pretty much non-addictive. Enjoy. BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 08-18-04 01:21 No 525986				big talk
						that comment really intimidated me as i know that my addiction potential is much higher than yours   As soon as someone says that they have control over a highly addicitve drug, I tend to suspect that they are full of shit and self-delusional.   Yet he turns around in another paragraph and says that he can't stop smoking pot, but "it's just me" - whatever the fuck that means. Sounds like doublespeak to me.  He talks and dances and sounds oh-so-cocksure but without a healthy respect for the chems we play with around here - he is just another fool who can talk a good game.   Just because this guy says certainly doesn't mean it is so.   I'll take your self-awareness of your capabilities and limitations over his scorn and derision. The combined sum of experience here rates far higher than his explanations to the contrary. Over the years I have come across many a big talker trying to buck the system...they always fall on their face in the end. caveat emptor
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 08-18-04 03:14 No 526013				barium; about lsd:
						your, um, 'skepticism' is certainly understandable. my experiment with daily acid was most unusual, and was accompanied by a life-style and enviornment that promoted or permitted a sense of wonder. it took more than a  month to 'obtain' a state that was steady; it was alot like the afterglow of a powerful trip; when the nuerotic wrestling ,match in the head is over. it was like running out of crazy fears thru sheer hammering and staying in the woods, as to avoid picking up much fresh mental distress. it was a plateau; the opposite of awkward or frightening. it was much better than heroin. which is why i got addicted.
		wyndowlicker (tourbee) 08-19-04 02:21 No 526206				Please dont!
						HEy now, All I can say my dear is you'll never know till it hits you your addicted to it.Its a love afair thats trapped many a strong man.Its better left alone.I got out of fight club but barely.Hell,its no different than being helplessly strung out on meth.LSD is the only true light. The bus came by,and I got on.Thats when it all began. -GD
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 08-19-04 02:31 No 526209				alternative addictions?
						the reason we have so many people willing to dedicate their lives to shooting drugs, is beecause we have no alternatives that pass scrutiny. most junkies; bless their shriveled hearts; will confess. on that fatal shot: i'm still glad i didn't join my dad's machine gun factory; even if i could have been filthy rich. most junkies have a very clear idea of what doesn't turn them on. there is simply nothing worth pursuing, in their minds;; within the staus quo. me too. let's shoot drugs now, and really mess with their heads.
		honey_badger (Newbee) 08-19-04 02:55 No 526218				addicts
						perhaps thats why aztec has considered this... out of 'there is no cure for the tedium' so guess what, you have to seek and search out things to bee with in this status quo... nothing keeps you motivated like training and eating right!! plus fill your mind with new knowledge, i have just discovered new heights in states of mind from tesla!! and energy, plus expanding my whole view on they way the universe looks.. an addict has a choice, line up in the line that says i want to be a victom aztec start paying attension now or apply your self.. epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		midway (Hive Bee) 08-23-04 01:37 No 526878				Forget opiates. Yes heroin can probably be...
						Forget opiates. Yes heroin can probably be used now and then..If its anything like cocaine or methamphetamine then addiction potential is not near as substantial as what they claim it to be. however its really probably not worth it...and if one has the tendency to be psychologically addicted then believe me losing your house and assets in persuit of H is a serious consideration. read my thread on psilocybin...the finest enhancing chemical (next to lsd and X) that ive ever encountered. Be kind to your body for gods sake. people care about your well being. midway
		Dope_Amine (Hive Bee) 08-23-04 16:43 No 526954				Heroin CAN be used responsibly
						First off, 'shrooms do a real number on your liver, so I dunno that they're all that innocent. As far as H goes, I did it for many years without getting addicted.  I realized that if I did it for more than two days in a row, the effect diminished so much that it wasn't really worth it.  So my two motivating factors for spacing my usage out was the desire to not get addicted and to make the high actually worth while when I did it.  Opiates have different effects on different people.  For me, I feel that they improve my quality of life because of the way they motivate me to accomplish so much while on them and the intense love, yes love- with no particular direction place on it, that I feel when pleasantly loaded.  Working out, running, surfing and just doing blaa daily bullshit errands are all so much more fullfilling when I'm loaded.  Dope gives me contentment and motivation.  But if I were to become physically dependant on 'em, then these great benefits would be lost.  Heroin does not suck you in like they try to portray.  You have to do it intentionally every day for quite some time (sometimes months) b4 you become physically addicted for the first time.  Once you've developed that physical addiction though, it's almost like a learned reaction because it becomes much easier to experience withdrawl symptoms after about a week's daily usage.  (my 2 cents) P.S. Opiate bees: Check out my codeine -> oxycodone synth.  It is VERY detailed for the 1st-timer.  Codeine is an incredibly easy and available pathway to much of all you may fantasize about.  I will be doing other codeine -> exotic yummies as well as benzomorphan synth developments in the next few months! something for your mind.......
		Greenblue 08-24-04 12:28				Osmium. (Rated as: insignificant)
		Greenblue 08-24-04 12:43				kingsofsleep (Rated as: flaming)
		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 08-24-04 13:09 No 527089				Wasn't the latest gossip that I'm from Germany?
						LSD and heroin are PEAs huh? I'm glad someone finally told us. BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm
		jsorex (Hive Addict) 08-24-04 19:50 No 527119				I have used heroin and other opiates such as...
						I have used heroin and other opiates such as morphine and codeine for years on and off and never felt truly addicted, even though the tolerance has come and what else. It's like cigarettes I guess, you can smoke them without becoming addicted for years if you want, but what's the point of that?
		midway (Hive Bee) 08-24-04 20:52 No 527125				DopeAmine, sources on the liver damage ...
						DopeAmine, sources on the liver damage please...i believe that your misunderstanding comes from reports of people misidentifying and consuming poisonous varieties. AFAIK psilocybe mushrooms are not toxic to vital organs. Fatalities are rare and probably completely nonexistant if you factor in Mis IDs. Medical texts state that the only negative effects are related to hypertention and inducing mental problems in at risk people..although children sometimes reportedly have seizures from accidental ingestion(thats prolly a mid ID as well). Dont say unless you know for sure man. Heroin is not neurotoxic, BTW.
		Dope_Amine (Hive Bee) 08-24-04 23:50 No 527152				Shrooms
						I have consumed cubensis that I grew cubensis that were bought, and cyanesis that I picked (sorry for any spelling errors).  I am sorry for assuming about the liver damage (maybe I made an "ass" out of "me"- ha ha) but shrooms do often cause a person's body to show an unusually high need to expel urine, and this is very typical of toxic substances.  I, personally, often found that I would need to take a very long piss about every 15 minutes while on shrooms until I would finally become very dehydrated.  In simple terms, this is your body saying "you put something toxic in me and I'm getting it the fuck outta here".  Don't get me wrong, I have had some of the most incredibly wonderful experiences on shrooms...... something for your mind.......
		midway (Hive Bee) 08-26-04 21:37 No 527579				thats odd...Ive never experienced that.
						thats odd...Ive never experienced that. Beer makes me whiz like crazy though.
		psyloxy (Hive Addict) 08-26-04 22:06 No 527587				pissing and the sympathicus / H is so lame
						It is a common sign, noted by myself, too. Not only on shrooms but anything that has stimulant properties, like LSD and mescaline as well as coffein, meth, MDA. I don't think so much it is a sign of toxicity, merely a side-effect of sympathomimetic stimulation. I had a friend who coincidentially took a liver/kidney test just the day after a 3,5g shroom night. There were no abnormalities whatsoever, which, I know is not the most scientific proof of non-toxicity. concerning heroin I do think it can be used sparingly without problems. Over the past 2 years there's only be a few occasions I used it, while I could get it everyday just a few 100m from where I live. That however depends highly on how you like it, I think. The point is: I still think heroin was the biggest disappointment in my drug-life. Always depicted as the ultimate relief, the tool to gain uncomparable contentment - it prooved to have little to no noticeable effect on my mood (I guess because I'm still in "I don't care"-mode from my youth). And trust me quality of the stuff was verified by a junky who would feel it gave him everything he needed. Route of administration was IV all the way. What I hate most about it is the itching and how it makes you sick to your stomach, so you won't be able to eat. The only time I would feel a relief from heroin was when I used it to come down from amphetamine after a 12 h night that was spent dancing (d'n'b). I guess people are different. --psyloxy--
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 08-26-04 22:43 No 527596				must suburbia lead to assholes?
						yes, according to radical authority figures. (i am that authority, btw) i beg you all to consider just what it is that we are suppossed  to adhere to; and why. if and when you do this, you should feel very liberated. you can do whatever you want to do. and there is litteraly NO CHANCE that it will bee as disgusting as the morally accepted alternative. the most disgusting thing anybee can do, in these times, is that which your parents approve of. unless your parents are like me; which is unlikely to the max.
		wimpy (Hive Bee) 08-27-04 20:20 No 527830				hm, i think psyloxy has put it to the point:...
						hm, i think psyloxy has put it to the point: like every potentially addicting drug h is only dangerous if on likes it (ok, except one is forced to use it over a longer period of time. don't thinks this happens very often to most people:)) So this is when one should become cautious - if he realises he likes it ... :) i liked it too much (and i still do - from distance) and i had some very "interesting times" with it. very good times, too, but, well ... That urine-thing: as i experienced that urge to urinate every hour or so sometimes for weeks after some e-like pills good h normaly lead to anuria (not only me, other people as well), more or less hefty. i remember a night when i nearly started to panic in the end (as much as one can panic when on h) and tried all i could think of to release my bladder, like lying in the bath tub treating my underbelly with a warm shower and so on, and nothing, while the urge to urinate still became bigger and bigger ... shudder. also experienced a unability to jerk off when having sex on h (who always tells it would be impossible??), but that's not always bad if one likes it. but that's another story :) - Beware of the Morphail Effect! -
		midway (Hive Bee) 08-29-04 01:30 No 528038				Re: That however depends highly on how you...
						That however depends highly on how you like it, I think. The point is: I still think heroin was the biggest disappointment in my drug-life. Always depicted as the ultimate relief, the tool to gain uncomparable contentment - it prooved to have little to no noticeable effect on my mood hm just as i suspected..cocaine was a big laugh..i ws expecting something spectacular there too, but nothing. LSD and mushroooms make a laughingstock of cocaine. I think the frequent urination on mushrooms is a nervous thing..ive never had to urinate overmuch on mushrooms. Coffee is a different story.
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 08-29-04 05:43 No 528069				livng up to it's rep
						Ketamine was the only drug to ever "over perform" in terms of expectations. It more than lived up to them, meeting and exceeding them.   It was what I imagined drugs to be like before I ever did them. caveat emptor
		wyndowlicker (tourbee) 08-29-04 18:47 No 528136				HEy now,
						HEy now, I was so helplessly addicted I finally had to move out of chicago to a place I didnt know where to score.Then I got better.It was to easy to use it as a place to run to.On the nod.I thought it was romantic,my musician friends were using it.I wanted to know why so many great artists and authors,mainly burrows used it as a muse.I sure found out.Boy am I sad I ever did.Stole 8 years from me.sorry,I stole 8 years from my life.Then when jerry died I woke up.Got myself together.Now,Im a very sucessful happy guy.almost 10 nyears later.The average shelf life of a junky is 8 years.Im threw playing russian roulette.I see at least one friend every 1-2 years die.Especially from oxy's. The bus came by,and I got on.Thats when it all began. -GD
		TrypNballZium (Hive Bee) 08-30-04 03:27 No 528201				It was what I imagined drugs to be like before
						It was what I imagined drugs to be like before I ever did them. i find this extrordinarily hard to beelieve. thats like imagining what chocolate taste like without ever having tried it. ive only done K once but i found that is was a truly unique experience that was completely unexpected. i cant even phathom an "ego" imagining correctly what a disassociative "egoless" experience is like. Will Pimp 4 Food!
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 08-31-04 19:12 No 528558				let me explain
						i find this extrordinarily hard to beelieve   It wasn't that I as able to discern what a disassociative trip would be like before I ever did it, rather the power and scope of the drug was what I was talking about. The complete loss of reality and the experience of falling DEEP into the rabbit hole.   I completely enjoyed the experience and always look forward to it. The feeling of being connected to everything and everyone is overwhelming and yet peaceful at the same time. It's one of the reasons I feel that drugs can be a connection, a door, to the divine. caveat emptor
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 08-31-04 22:57 No 528609				they will take you to the door
						but they won't let you in
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 09-01-04 01:33 No 528636				very true chuck
						I perhaps misstated my perception. I believe it to be a window to the divine. To open the door, requires (IMHO)  sober mind hitting on all cylinders.   In other words, drugs/chems may be able to show you the way, but you CANNOT walk that path while on them. caveat emptor
		honey_badger (Hive Bee) 09-01-04 01:54 No 528646				expanding the mind
						that just sounds like you were fryed. one consideration is the path is what drug enlightens you to obsorb and persue in the after experience, further shape your personality in awakenings to where your loyalties should lie through life with out it you just think about getting fryed, again,as it was overwhelming and contained is what you were thats what the drug is and did to you fryed your arse hole pure and simple. ketamine is a dangerous drug, if you can call it that. epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		Lestat (Hive Bee) 09-01-04 02:52 No 528686				What's the problem with ketamine?
						What's the problem with ketamine? I haven't done it yet, but plan to, I have used DXM a few times and I gather that is similar, quite fun as I remember once I got the hang of extractions and what have you. It can't bee too unsafe, they use it on animals Kids, say NO to the DEA!
		honey_badger (Hive Bee) 09-01-04 02:58 No 528691				you ever read exactly what ketamine does?
						you ever read exactly what ketamine does? besides the fact tha alot of people die on it from mixing drugs with it, the later years after ketamine use is what i would focuss on researching epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 09-01-04 02:59 No 528695				jj
						As usual you speak of things you know nothing about - but whats new?   Oh yes, I forgot, you don't really speak about anything, you just cut and paste other peoples words...   Unoriginal and stupid...you got a good thing going there jemma. you ever read exactly what ketamine does?   Why don't you enlighten us...this should be good. caveat emptor
		honey_badger (Hive Bee) 09-01-04 03:58 No 528736				research ketamine
						your self , you will find the tests they did with it on human subjects arnt very positive. you post that same old crap when you get annoyed at the fact that your deluded in your trips..its wearing thin, unlike your ex? over eating ass hole, in zibariums threads i posted two posts on this random 'wank' to be entertaining then further gave the reference, but if you need it to feel secure then fine, let the baby have itys bottle epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		Lestat (Hive Bee) 09-01-04 04:01 No 528738				I have researched K a bit just recently, and I
						I have researched K a bit just recently, and I intend to ty it, it just sounds like my kind of drug Kids, say NO to the DEA!
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 09-01-04 04:19 No 528745				"your self , you will find the tests they
						"your self , you will find the tests they did with it on human subjects arnt very positive." With that resounding bit of evidence, how could we have ever doubted you? Ketamine USED to be a common anaesthetic.  Now it is used primarily by vets after a number of people complained of scary dreams and detached hallucinations.  Animals don't seem to complain about those things as much. It is considered a useful anaesthetic because it has little depressing effects upon respiratory and cardiovascular systems, and a good LD/ED ratio. I can assure you that were it considered so lethal, it would not have remained a popular choice for vets (who often seem to care more about their patients than MDs). Additional info: http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=9251 Note - This is something I wouldn't mind trying once.  I rarely do any drugs these days, but perhaps it's time I try a few again. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		jsorex (Hive Addict) 09-01-04 04:23 No 528748				Ketamine is very nice, onlöy thing nices was...
						Ketamine is very nice, onlöy thing nices was ketamine + dxm. Which is another story. But compared to DXM I think ketamine is more clear, less "drunk" feeling. You can easily do it to the totally psychedelic point, of total disassosiation. For me this happens at 500 mg +
		honey_badger (Hive Bee) 09-01-04 04:25 No 528750				animal liberation
						>Animals don't seem to complain about those things as much there isnt much they can do, even with global warming going to wipe out about 50 species from the WMD that the usa produces (co2) if your human, i wouldent try K based on self awareness and research from your own evaluation, thats why i sadi research it your self (more than you have noid) epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 09-01-04 04:36 No 528758				did my research
						And I surely don't need some dumb cunt like yourself to tell me what I already know (and obviously you don't). you will find the tests they did with it on human subjects arnt very positive   And so tell me...why is it approved as an anaesthetic for humans? Indications for Use Ketamine may be used as the sole anaesthetic agent for a large number of superficial operations and procedures in both adults and children. Common procedures undertaken with ketamine anaesthesia include minor to intermediate orthopaedic surgery (especially distal arm or lower leg surgery including manipulation of fractures), gynaecological surgery (eg. dilatation and curettage and other minor surgical procedures), drainage of abscesses, debridement of burns, change of dressings and minor dental procedures, as well as a variety of examinations under anaesthesia http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u04/u04_010.htm   You tell me to do my research but I think it's just your way of dodging the fact that you are wrong...sigh..as usual.   I have heard of Olney's Lesions possibly occuring in long term heavy use but it hasn't been proven (except in rats - and that condition proved to be reversable) only theorized. On the other hand, Olney's lesions have never been found at human recreational levels, and DXM has received little attention. Ketamine users, some of whom have used ketamine for many years, don't typically show mental impairment. Even the few DXM users who do show impairment typically return to normal after staying off DXM for several months, and at least one paper suggests the mental impairment from dissociatives may be caused by depression, not brain damage…Weighing the two sides I personally believe that moderate use of dissociatives is probably no harder on your brain cells than moderate use of alcohol or amphetamines (I said moderate use, not some five day fry-yer-brain speed freak binge), and that if you use DXM sparingly (e.g., once or twice a month at lower plateaus, maybe once or twice a year at upper plateaus), you'll be just fine. In fact, I've never known anyone to suffer lasting impairment even after going through a few months of weekly DXM use at upper plateaus. But I could be wrong! Mild brain damage has a nasty way of showing up years later when you've forgotten about the stupid things you did when you were young. --William E. White, 199814 http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/dxm_health2.shtml   As for you being entertaining - perhaps to yourself that's about it. caveat emptor
		honey_badger (Hive Bee) 09-01-04 04:48 No 528763				k
						i said it was a dangerous drug to take cup cake plus the tests i have read give more accurate results from drug users administered with K..there is always another side to things and that is some thing your not presenting the main point (all considerations) your proberly only searching for some thing to argue with me about, you must be a lonerly piss ant. i suggest you read more. and mental impairment is a loose term lol, i mean look at you, you class yourself as sane not mentally impaired you know how healthy you are compared to me lol metnally impaired is consensus reality, some thing you are a cog in the wheel of..consume be silent and die yunno that sort of thing which is what your saying.. im saying read more and consider it, K is not a healthy drug and is dangerous which is my main point taken from erowid Perhaps the most important property of ketamine is that, despite the induction of both anesthesia and dissociation, the cough and gag reflexes *USUALLY* are not affected.  This means that, contrary to most other agents which will produce anesthesia and/or unconsciousness, it is very unlikely that a person using ketamine will aspirate their own saliva and other excretions.  This is *NOT* guarenteed, but is a pretty good bet.  Solo use, however, remains dangerous. epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 09-01-04 04:52 No 528768				"there isnt much they can do, even with...
						"there isnt much they can do, even with global warming going to wipe out about 50 species from the WMD that the usa produces (co2)" Yes, because that's entirely relevant to the thread. "more than you have noid" You presume much if you believe all I've read about Ketamine is what I posted here.  I am well aware of Ketamine and it's ups and downs.  But in terms of safety, there's little concern provided you're not being a complete moron about it.  It's addictive potential is primarily psychological, and only seems to be a problem in certain people pre-disposed to dissociative drug addictions either phsyiologically or through their social construction. It's no coincidence that many people who enjoy K also enjoy DXM.  The same reason that certain people prefer shrooms to coke, or heroin to pot.  Our neurochemistry makes their use or abuse more appealing to us by pleasuring certain portions of the brain, either by direct pleasure enhancement or letting us forget our problems for a while.  Or think we're solving them when we're not.  Or actually making some head-way into solving them. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 09-01-04 04:53 No 528766				"there isnt much they can do, even with...
						"there isnt much they can do, even with global warming going to wipe out about 50 species from the WMD that the usa produces (co2)" Yes, because that's entirely relevant to the thread. "more than you have noid" You presume much if you believe all I've read about Ketamine is what I posted here.  I am well aware of Ketamine and it's ups and downs.  But in terms of safety, there's little concern provided you're not being a complete moron about it.  It's addictive potential is primarily psychological, and only seems to be a problem in certain people pre-disposed to dissociative drug addictions either phsyiologically or through their social construction. It's no coincidence that many people who enjoy K also enjoy DXM.  The same reason that certain people prefer shrooms to coke, or heroin to pot.  Our neurochemistry makes their use or abuse more appealing to us by pleasuring certain portions of the brain, either by direct pleasure enhancement or letting us forget our problems for a while.  Or think we're solving them when we're not.  Or actually making some head-way into solving them. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 09-01-04 04:53 No 528764				"there isnt much they can do, even with...
						"there isnt much they can do, even with global warming going to wipe out about 50 species from the WMD that the usa produces (co2)" Yes, because that's entirely relevant to the thread. "more than you have noid" You presume much if you believe all I've read about Ketamine is what I posted here.  I am well aware of Ketamine and it's ups and downs.  But in terms of safety, there's little concern provided you're not being a complete moron about it.  It's addictive potential is primarily psychological, and only seems to be a problem in certain people pre-disposed to dissociative drug addictions either phsyiologically or through their social construction. It's no coincidence that many people who enjoy K also enjoy DXM.  The same reason that certain people prefer shrooms to coke, or heroin to pot.  Our neurochemistry makes their use or abuse more appealing to us by pleasuring certain portions of the brain, either by direct pleasure enhancement or letting us forget our problems for a while.  Or think we're solving them when we're not.  Or actually making some head-way into solving them. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 09-01-04 04:53 No 528767				"there isnt much they can do, even with...
						"there isnt much they can do, even with global warming going to wipe out about 50 species from the WMD that the usa produces (co2)" Yes, because that's entirely relevant to the thread. "more than you have noid" You presume much if you believe all I've read about Ketamine is what I posted here.  I am well aware of Ketamine and it's ups and downs.  But in terms of safety, there's little concern provided you're not being a complete moron about it.  It's addictive potential is primarily psychological, and only seems to be a problem in certain people pre-disposed to dissociative drug addictions either phsyiologically or through their social construction. It's no coincidence that many people who enjoy K also enjoy DXM.  The same reason that certain people prefer shrooms to coke, or heroin to pot.  Our neurochemistry makes their use or abuse more appealing to us by pleasuring certain portions of the brain, either by direct pleasure enhancement or letting us forget our problems for a while.  Or think we're solving them when we're not.  Or actually making some head-way into solving them. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 09-01-04 04:58 No 528769				Whoah dudes, I don't know how that happened.
						Whoah dudes, I don't know how that happened.  Sorry about the multiple posts. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		KiZaDm (Hive Addict) 09-01-04 16:27 No 528876				your forgiven
						btw, there is is a "delete this post" button. Ph # 954-287-0023
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 09-01-04 17:51 No 528893				dumbass
						the tests i have read give more accurate results from drug users administered with K..there is always another side to things and that is some thing your not presenting   As well as something you're not presenting. I just think you are talking to hear yourself speak - you think you are qulified to lecture to people here but  you always fail to hit your mark. your proberly only searching for some thing to argue with me about   Actually, you started this, unlike you I know what I am talking about and can spell it correctly as well. im saying read more and consider it, K is not a healthy drug and is dangerous which is my main point   And I am saying you are wrong. It's probably more due the fact that you have a hard time with english and don't really understand the context of the studies you claim to have read. taken from erowid Perhaps the most important property of ketamine is that, despite the induction of both anesthesia and dissociation, the cough and gag reflexes *USUALLY* are not affected.  This means that, contrary to most other agents which will produce anesthesia and/or unconsciousness, it is very unlikely that a person using ketamine will aspirate their own saliva and other excretions.  This is *NOT* guarenteed, but is a pretty good bet.  Solo use, however, remains dangerous  Why does it remain dangerous? Your little snippet of article doesn't say why. In fact, other than saying that it's highly likely that I won't choke on my own saliva and/or vomit while on ketamine, it doesn't prove much of anything.   I will tell you why solo use could possibly be dangerous and that has to do with setting - you could freeze to death, drown or be unaware of other possible emergencies to your person. As far as your body - there have been no long term effects to humans proven.   Now go back bitch and try it again...see if you can do this right. caveat emptor
		CharlieBigpotato (Bizarre pHomme de Terra) 09-01-04 22:30 No 528956				better reference points needed
						don't take this as an advocacy of drug addiction, please. but: we should bee able to compare our choices and happiness against some sort of realistic background reference point: the average human life. addicts should find comfort in knowing what their odds are in having an equally or even shittier life than straight people whom die of diseases; suicides; car wrecks, and so forth. choosing the path of drug addiction may bee no worse, on average, than choosing the available alternative, for your type. bee the proud; the brave; the addicted.
		sushitake (Hive Bee) 09-03-04 07:30 No 529293				MORPHINE
						KNOW WHAT A PRE/TRANS FALLACY IS? THE HUMAN NERVOUS SYSTEM UTILIZES OPIATES FOR NORMAL FUNCTIONING. PEOPLE MAINTAIN ON MAINTENANCE DRUGS ACTUALLY STRONGER THAN HEROIN LIKE BUPRENORPHINE OR METHADONE, SO WHY NOT HEROIN ? opiophile
		honey_badger (Hive Bee) 09-06-04 00:38 No 529777				kos
						what im qualified to do is make people consider awareness, and thats what i have done, you have the typical junkee traits,and arnt any where near as healthy as i am, or as moderate. i can say this by the fact i havent used any thing for 7 months, and look at what i look like. Also, be aware that many people who use K see a new perspective on the world which seems to be quite ego-centric and conspiratorial. K can increase one's sense of connection between events, synchronicities, etc. This, when interpreted in certain common ways, can lead one to believe that events are working out in ways which focus on the self ("if that happened that way, and this happened this way, both of these things must be about me") and then, further, that people and events are working in some heretofore unseen concert which may be either sinister or just novel. Pay special attention to these kinds of thought patterns and ask the question: "what is most likely true" instead of "what can be true." Be careful with this stuff. that was taken from erowid, and i wanted the person in question to read for them self not me provide the infomation, its the skill involved im trying to provocate here.. The evidence is that ketamine and many other NMDA antagonists that have been tested in humans, cause an acute disturbance in neural circuitry that leads to psychotic manifestations. These same drugs cause the same disturbance in neural circuitry in rats and when we look at their brains we see evidence for physical neuronal injury. Since no one has looked at the brains of humans immediately after administering these drugs, we do not know whether the physical neuronal injury occurs." --J.W. Olney, 28 January 20026 "The quick and easy answer is that we do not know. The reason is that one cannot study the brain of a human in an adequate fashion after exposure to a NMDA antagonist. Since there are no data on humans, I do not see how anybody can be "certain" one way or another. Based on the totality of the evidence I have concerns that NAN can occur in the human brain." --Nuri B. Farber, 15 April 20027 source: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/dxm_health2.shtml ( would start reading about k from there) some of the findings indicate some exaggerated observation but in conclusion In Closing # (taken from the above link) Perhaps the most important point of William White's "Bad News" article is that a concerning number of heavy users of DXM report worrisome problems even months after they stop taking the drug. Lasting problems have also been reported by doctors treating very heavy users of PCP and ketamine. Unfortunately, the article's flaws have often drowned this important message in the controversy around whether NAN is the mechanism for these lasting problems. Frequent "recreational" use of these dissociatives can lead to a number of psychological difficulties; in addition to cognitive disruption and annoyances, frequent users may experience delusions of grandeur (i.e., "I'm some sort of messiah"), 'synchronicity' and delusions of reference (i.e., "I was just thinking about my ex-girlfriend, and the sign I just looked at has her name on it, hence the universe must be trying to tell me to go to her house right now"), symptoms similar to manic depression, and a host of other problems. (Whether one interprets synchronicities and deep insights as "delusions" or "Truth" is, ultimately, a matter of faith not one of logic or evidence, and I'm certainly not going to take a final position on epistemological imponderables. The yardstick for sanity is simply functionality: if you find yourself standing in the middle of the street naked, yelling about the coming apocalypse, the police are not likely to look upon the matter kindly, even [or especially] if you really are a "prophet" of God.) In addition, regular use of NMDA-dissociatives can complicate academic and professional work and pose serious difficulties for relationships with family, significant others, and friends. Suffice it to say that regular use of these drugs puts a severe strain on one's social interactions. It is hard to be friends with an alien anthropologist, let alone wake up next to one every morning. NAN is one of several possible explanations for the medium and long term negative consequences of heavy dissociative use. It may be that none of the proposed mechanisms are the cause of the problems reported. The evidence in favor of NAN as the mechanism is equivocal and it is important not to jump to conclusions and foreclose a complete inquiry into the issue. All of this has been a very long way of saying: the bad news isn't in, we still don't know, and users need to be careful whether or not these chemicals cause Olney's Lesions. If you are using or considering using DXM or other dissociatives, it's your nervous system that you may or may not be "frying". Evaluate your use carefully, and try to be honest. Frivolous use of these drugs seems far from wise; that their use is wise at all is open to considerable question. Many people report life-changing reorientations in philosophical perspective (myself among them); many others report becoming unexpectedly "whacked out", left wondering how they got that way. Try to take care of yourselves, whether on the path of knowledge or in the pursuit of pleasure. like i said K is a dangerous drug, and only reading what you presented is counter productive to the capacity one can have at their disposal, the hive is a place where people come for infomation, you look at the infomatin and evaluate it, your personal drug taking habbit and opinion is of no relervance, i dont present that, i say read more, and consider before taking it. i find the attension i pay to you and your posts to me are proving to be quiet sensless. i shall counter that now. cup cake epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 09-06-04 01:37 No 529789				nothing proven STILL
						In addition, regular use of NMDA-dissociatives can complicate academic and professional work and pose serious difficulties for relationships with family, significant others, and friends   Regular use of any drug can can potentially pose such problems. That is a fine example of distorting facts to suit one's purpose. NAN is one of several possible explanations for the medium and long term negative consequences of heavy dissociative use. It may be that none of the proposed mechanisms are the cause of the problems reported.   Nothing conclusive so far. All of this has been a very long way of saying: the bad news isn't in, we still don't know, and users need to be careful whether or not these chemicals cause Olney's Lesions.   Aagin...and I used your own quote above - nothing has been proven. I just assume that people around here know to treat any drug with respect. If you are trying to imply it's dangerous like meth or heroin then I think you are wasting your time and are a complete fool.   You like to take shots at my usage patterns (nothing in nearly 2 yrs btw, outside of 1 night in NYC last may) which you know nothing about and for some reason feel the need to keep bragging about what kind of shape you are in - I really don't care jemma, what you look like. It has no bearing on this discussion and really doesn't make you any more qualified to post your opinion here.  Like any drug, ketamine has it's drawbacks when abused - I have seen firsthand what that does to other people. It's potential for psychological addiction seem great but you can say that about any drug. Perhaps you had a bad experience on it and thus I could understand your apprehension. As uptight as I imagine you to be, I can see where you couldn't handle something like K. your personal drug taking habbit and opinion is of no relervance   It's of as much relevance as your much touted (and laughable) meth in moderation bullshit that you post on here ad nauseum. You overstate your own importance on this board, you are just like the rest of us here - just another bee. i find the attension i pay to you and your posts to me are proving to be quiet sensless. i shall counter that now.   Oh but you keep coming back for more don't you sweety?   Admit it, I piss you off you plagarizing cunt...you only keep replying because you want the last word.   As such, this discussion is WAAAY off-topic and this thread needs to be locked. caveat emptor
		honey_badger (Hive Bee) 09-06-04 01:58 No 529797				toxcity of heroin k and meth
						meth in moderation has been given and tryed by a few bees that can and want to experience an alternative again it is my personal opinon you cannot do any drug in moderation, thats your choice, but those that can and do and live by it, are qualified to give the awareness as to prevent and give out harm reduction at all costs, K is a dark spot, but is still a dangerous drug heroin is not if pure, they have proved that, i classs the toxcity of a drug as to what it can do to your body if done in moderation, and since pure heroin isnt toxic, the dosing patterns are nothing i consider, pure meth in a special dose may not be as toxic either with the right racemic blend in moderation. it may not be consensus reality im not fucking normal, i dont do normal things cause normal people are tediously contained and fucking counter productive in their choices.. but not the people who have taken my adivce, as opposed to you, all you do is bitch, agian thats all i needed to say to this 'bee' epistemologicide- http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf
		Quality (Newbee) 09-14-04 08:46 No 531254				It seems the dope talk has bee run into the...
						It seems the dope talk has bee run into the ground however I feel compelled to throw in my two cents. It is more the needle thing then dope that always gets out of control for me, and some how or another I just completed a 14 day stick fest after quitting for six months. Opiates really were never my thing, they always made me naitous, iticty and irritable however over time they, specifically dope, grew on me. Dope is the perfect cushion after a long day of meth or coke, and over time I began to love it. The itching went away, I quit getting so natous, and I found myself letting out this big breath of relief whenever I took a shot. I personally think coke and meth is allot worse on your body however the physical addiction that someone can acquire over time using dope is awful, that seems to be were the stigma is rooted from. I have never developed an opiate addiction that couldn’t be taken care of in the privacy in my own home, but I have many friends who have. I guess my point is it most definitely can grow on you, I crave it on occasion now when I have always been a stimulants guy. I didn’t read the first post but the title must h lead to addiction? Not necessarily but it is inevitable, given enough time you will develop a physical dependence if used consistently, in my very humble opinion. good luck
		SilverSurfer (Hive Bee) 09-15-04 05:41 No 531396				limbs alright now?
						Word up. U got to get used to any drug and some people need more time other less but if u got the right mind set up drugs cant harm you. The drawback is the time u fell off from god mode they will ... The only purpose of your life may be to serve as a warning to others http://www.despair.com
		superman (Hive Bee) 10-28-04 04:36 No 538251				KOS i hear you 100%. drugs have given my life...
						KOS i hear you 100%.  drugs have given my life a sort of universal connectedness that nothing else would be able to provide for me "that just sounds like you were fryed." that was uncalled for " you fryed your arse hole pure and simple" and that's just being an "arse hole" "ketamine is a dangerous drug, if you can call it that. " i call it that, a drug that is. as for being dangerous, it's the only one that i've done extremely excessive amounts of over a long period of time not only without suffering any damage as of yet (stopped heavy use few yrs ago) but also enjoyed some of the most rewarding experiences of my life HONEY BADGER - for fear of a down-rated post i'll keep this civil :)    please don't shit on other peoples threads,    especially ones that i'm fond of such as this one which is now fucked like your head from lack of life experience
		epistemologicide (Hive Addict) 10-28-04 05:42 No 538262				k useless like opiates
						come to think of it, i would now consider that K is a fucking roleless drug like the over glorified pain killer of herion... like shuglin says, use it for the role it plays in your body, K is synthetic,(any thing man made is inferiour to nature) you can get profound expriences from natural dmt, mushrooms, delt-9 thc etc.. and considering a drug for its vitality is nothing that needs to be critisized superman... yeah im sure your attitude to drug taking is utilizing the capacity and not just for relief...alot of people use drugs for releif,ALL HEROIN USERS USE IT FOR ReLEIF!! dont get me wrong they deserve releif, but treat the symptoms with drugs, and do not attack the source.. fuck K and fuck opiates http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf no more sacred laws
		somuchclass (Stranger) 10-29-04 06:20 No 538457				heroin addiction
						Yes, you can use heroin occasionally without becoming addicted, but certain types of drug addicts seem to be particularly prone to H addiction.  For example, I have snorted heroin, shot heroin several times IV by itself and once even shot up a speedball (a mixture of heroin and cocaine) IV, and I am not addicted to heroin and have not done it in years. The real question you should be asking us though is not whether you can continually do some occasional heroin without becoming addicted to it, but rather can you do it forever without dying from it via an overdose, due to unexpectedly high purity for example. Though drug addiction is a mental nuisance, heroin overdosages are oftentimes fatal unless someone is with you when you pass out from your shot and calls the paramedics in a timely fashion, which almost no junkies are willing to do for each other.

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