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All 15 posts Subject: Firearm residue Thread closed Down

MarleyBob
(Hive Bee)
09-23-04 17:23
No 532866
      Firearm residue

Apparently when a bullet is fired from a firearm, certain chemicals are released during the combustion of smokeless gunpowder including nitrites and lead. These can be deposited on nearby objects including the shooter and anything the round strikes. Even though these are minute amounts they can still be detected by LE forensics and used as evidence.

Clothes can be destroyed, but if one fires a gun barehanded, what can/should be done to eliminate this evidence from the persons skin?

Seems like soap and water wouldn't be enough.

-MB

Pot is fun.

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
09-23-04 17:28
No 532867
User Picture       > Clothes can be destroyed, but if one...

> Clothes can be destroyed, but if one fires a gun barehanded, what can/should be
> done to eliminate this evidence from the persons skin?

Nothing can be done, except maybe excessive use of a brush.

Your only option is meeting a few friends at the local shooting range making sure that many people see you firing lots of rounds there.

An even better option is not firing a gun at all when comitting a crime. If you did you deserve getting in trouble.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

littlejasebee
(Hive Bee)
09-23-04 21:08
No 532895
      Only 5 hours !

What I understand it can only be detected for forensics and used as evidence only 5 hour after been fired.

That is the gunpowder on the person's hand who fired the gun.

Littlejase smile    .

" Better to be than not to Bee "

geezmeister
(Of Counsel)
09-23-04 21:50
No 532903
      evidence in a murder case

I represented a defendant charged with murder who was arrested within a couple of hours of the victim's death by shooting. He was an immediate suspect and was arrested at his home. The sheriff obtained a search warrant for, among other things, scrapings from underneath the defendant's fingernails. They also took a test of the skin of his hands that was a standard collection method at the time, although I do not recall what that method was at this time.

The defendant gave the sheriff a statement denying having fired a gun in the recent past before he was even booked into the jail.

The test for the presence of nitrites on his hands came back negative. The fingernail scrapings, however, not only showed postive for nitrites, the chemist claimed he could identify the type of bullet used (by manufacturer) from powder residue under the defendant's fingernails. It did match the brand of shell used to kill the defendant. The chemist testified the defendant had fired a weapon within so many hours of the time the fingernail scrapings were taken, which coincided with the time of the shooting. My defendant had threatened the victim, and has a motive for the shooting.

He also admitted to me that after he shot the man, he ditched his clothes at a friend's house, showered, and washed his hands very thoroughly a number of times with Lava soap. He admitted that it never occurred to him to wash under his fingernails with a brush. He entered a plea of guilty before trial.

He was almost smart enough to make a statement to the sheriff. He certainly thought he was. The not brushing under the fingernails did him in.

At the preliminary hearing, the chemist testified that the defendant had in fact fired that type of shell within so many hours of the time the scrapings were taken. He indicated that the failure to the collection process to gather nitrites from the hands could have been the result of very thorough cleaning of the hands. Faced with the fact that his nails tested positive for nitrites linked the type of ammunition by brand that caused the death, and his own statement that he had not fired a weapon at all, he realized that he was caught, as he had a motive to kill the decedent.

The lab report was positive for nitrites. I do not recall whether it mentioned lead or unburned gunpowder, but I recall the chemist who testified the presence of nitrites was evidence of the defendant's having fired a weapon within a certain period of hours of the time the sample was taken, and identification of the manufacturer of the bullet fired.

The client told me he had very carefully washed his hands, over and over, had, in fact carefully washed his hands repeatedly after shooting the victim. He did not, howver, use a fingernail brush.

He also gave a sworn statement to the police before talking to a lawyer in which he denied firing a weapon at any time in the recent past.

mostly harmless

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
09-24-04 11:16
No 532977
User Picture       Oh yes

GSR (Gun Shot Residue) is very detectable.

It comes from primer and propellant of bullet. Barium nitrate, antimony sulphide from centrefire high cal, lead azide from .22 rimfires usually. Analysis may be of Pb by AAS, for example. GSR even gets deposited on anyone standing nearby. Also detectable are uncombusted cellulose nitrate, glyceryl trinitrate and stabilizers.

A scary scenario: In the UK, only 5ng of explosive residue required to convict a person of manufacturing a bomb (1999 figures, may be lower after 9/11 etc).
So, imagine this: 1 person handles (tiny amount! )explosives, then holds $10 bank note for 5-10 seconds. Hands to person 2. Person 2 hands bank note to person 3. 3 hands to person 4. Person 4's hands swabbed with acetone, extract analysed for PETN by ESMS spectro. PERSON 4 CAN BE CONVICTED - OVER 5ng TRANSFERRED!!!! No shit, SWIX has seen lab reports on the tests when doing forensic chem papers!!

Scary stuff huh??

***FriedPiper***

I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.

jsorex
(Hive Addict)
09-24-04 11:31
No 532979
      Wouldn't then wearing plasic gloves eliminate...

Wouldn't then wearing plasic gloves eliminate the problem? After the immoral act, one could get rid of them and one's clothes, take a shower, etc.

I know a criminal psychologist, that once said that most murderers do not have it in them to live for years without confessing to somebody. Even if you did, all it takes is that you get drunk at a bar and start opening your mouth.

Ascension
(Hive Bee)
09-24-04 16:06
No 532995
User Picture       Gloves! haven't you watched enough movies to...

Gloves! haven't you watched enough movies to know that black leather gloves must be worn when committing any act of crime?

If one was wearing full length sleeves and long pants, gloves, then these things disposed of after i guess it would be pretty hard for any residue to be left on the culprit.

Make sure to wash your hair thoroughly too, better yet, shave it off! blush

Your an individual just like everyone else.

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
09-25-04 01:13
No 533042
User Picture       Yup

That is how you would best beat it. Throw away or better yet destroy evrything you were wearing, the outer layer at the very least. And be careful that the act of doing that doesn't incriminate you either, looks pretty strange if you suddenly burn you pants and jacket in the back yard... crazy

Also, don't touch the body. It is quite easy to take latent fingerprints off cadavars using iodine, ninhydrin and even superglue I think. Even if those are not the correct reagents (can't remember, its been a while...) it is easy, we went over this stuff in labs...

Also my disclaimer:>> SWIX does not condone murder at all, terrible act, do unto others etc etc, but if some freak touched my little girl, for example, ah.... you get the picture... mad

Ha ha ha funny you state 'black' gloves, why must they be black?!? Although me being me, I would buy the black ones, ha ha ha... laugh

***FriedPiper***

I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.

Ascension
(Hive Bee)
09-25-04 04:29
No 533073
User Picture       you ask why they must be black? *me* faints...

you ask why they must be black?
*me* faints... oww what have we come to.
Everyone knows they must be black!
Try committing a crime wearing pink gloves and you'll see why black must be worn!

Your an individual just like everyone else.

geezmeister
(Of Counsel)
09-25-04 04:48
No 533075
      skip the gloves

Skip the gloves. Just go out into the back yard and start shooting at tin cans. When the police arrive, drop the gun.
No way to tell whether the residue was from the crime, or the petty offense of shooting a weapon in the city limits.

mostly harmless

abolt
(Hive Addict)
09-25-04 04:52
No 533076
User Picture       When the police arrive, drop the gun.

When the police arrive, drop the gun.

.............and if you are black, have a vest on and a lawyer present. tongue

He took Blood Money
They took Blood

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
09-25-04 07:07
No 533091
User Picture       Long as it different gun, is all...

Because of course the weapon used will be linked to the crime. I know I know pretty obvious point but had to say it...

But yeah makes sense, have other gun somewhere, fire that few times and the interference from the GSR will obscure the original GSR present....

You psycho freaks out there getting this... shocked

Shit hope no beez are stupid enough to actually try knocking someone off. Much as I love The Sopranos, its not a good idea if you value your freedom or are at least a decent human...

***FriedPiper***

I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
09-25-04 09:38
No 533097
User Picture       Isn't that what I said in the second post of...

Isn't that what I said in the second post of this thread?

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
09-25-04 23:09
No 533179
User Picture       riddle me this then

Shit hope no beez are stupid enough to actually try knocking someone off. Much as I love The Sopranos, its not a good idea if you value your freedom or are at least a decent human...

So why are you giving advice then...?

You think this bee is gonna be out somewhere doing some illegal target shooting?

There is no excuse for murder.

This sets a fine example for any LE monitoring this site...

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
09-26-04 01:10
No 533191
User Picture       I do agree...

...that morally it is very borderline.

However, free speech must prevail. Its ok, Loompanics will have whole sections of books devoted to this probably, so it is all available anyway. wink

Besides, the dumb crims will still get caught no matter how much they read up on forensic science. They will be seen by three different sets of neighbours packing black rubbish sacks in the boot of the car while 'peering around suspiciously' at 3am, or the gun everyone knows they have will disappear forever, or whatever stupid mistake they make will bring them down.

And the smart people know not to do it, so its all ok, SWIX can assure you.... smile

Anyways wait until next week, I'm doing a post on good suicide technique; and a small piece on correct methods of sacrificing small live animals in your basement for satan. cool

But no no sorry really not meaning to offend anyone KOS, you do make a valid point. Actually dude, you get to the crux of the matter and endorse the principle in your signature, if you think about it...

***FriedPiper***

I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.

	https://the-hive.archive.erowid.org	the-hive@erowid.org



Powered by the Drug Enforcement Army Release 1.18 early beta, (c) 2021, MDMA-Soft
Links Erowid Rhodium


		MarleyBob (Hive Bee) 09-23-04 17:23 No 532866				Firearm residue
						Apparently when a bullet is fired from a firearm, certain chemicals are released during the combustion of smokeless gunpowder including nitrites and lead. These can be deposited on nearby objects including the shooter and anything the round strikes. Even though these are minute amounts they can still be detected by LE forensics and used as evidence. Clothes can be destroyed, but if one fires a gun barehanded, what can/should be done to eliminate this evidence from the persons skin? Seems like soap and water wouldn't be enough. -MB Pot is fun.



		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 09-23-04 17:28 No 532867				> Clothes can be destroyed, but if one...
						> Clothes can be destroyed, but if one fires a gun barehanded, what can/should be > done to eliminate this evidence from the persons skin? Nothing can be done, except maybe excessive use of a brush. Your only option is meeting a few friends at the local shooting range making sure that many people see you firing lots of rounds there. An even better option is not firing a gun at all when comitting a crime. If you did you deserve getting in trouble. BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm



		littlejasebee (Hive Bee) 09-23-04 21:08 No 532895				Only 5 hours !
						What I understand it can only be detected for forensics and used as evidence only 5 hour after been fired. That is the gunpowder on the person's hand who fired the gun. Littlejase . " Better to be than not to Bee "



		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 09-23-04 21:50 No 532903				evidence in a murder case
						I represented a defendant charged with murder who was arrested within a couple of hours of the victim's death by shooting. He was an immediate suspect and was arrested at his home. The sheriff obtained a search warrant for, among other things, scrapings from underneath the defendant's fingernails. They also took a test of the skin of his hands that was a standard collection method at the time, although I do not recall what that method was at this time. The defendant gave the sheriff a statement denying having fired a gun in the recent past before he was even booked into the jail. The test for the presence of nitrites on his hands came back negative. The fingernail scrapings, however, not only showed postive for nitrites, the chemist claimed he could identify the type of bullet used (by manufacturer) from powder residue under the defendant's fingernails. It did match the brand of shell used to kill the defendant. The chemist testified the defendant had fired a weapon within so many hours of the time the fingernail scrapings were taken, which coincided with the time of the shooting. My defendant had threatened the victim, and has a motive for the shooting. He also admitted to me that after he shot the man, he ditched his clothes at a friend's house, showered, and washed his hands very thoroughly a number of times with Lava soap. He admitted that it never occurred to him to wash under his fingernails with a brush. He entered a plea of guilty before trial. He was almost smart enough to make a statement to the sheriff. He certainly thought he was. The not brushing under the fingernails did him in. At the preliminary hearing, the chemist testified that the defendant had in fact fired that type of shell within so many hours of the time the scrapings were taken. He indicated that the failure to the collection process to gather nitrites from the hands could have been the result of very thorough cleaning of the hands. Faced with the fact that his nails tested positive for nitrites linked the type of ammunition by brand that caused the death, and his own statement that he had not fired a weapon at all, he realized that he was caught, as he had a motive to kill the decedent. The lab report was positive for nitrites. I do not recall whether it mentioned lead or unburned gunpowder, but I recall the chemist who testified the presence of nitrites was evidence of the defendant's having fired a weapon within a certain period of hours of the time the sample was taken, and identification of the manufacturer of the bullet fired. The client told me he had very carefully washed his hands, over and over, had, in fact carefully washed his hands repeatedly after shooting the victim. He did not, howver, use a fingernail brush. He also gave a sworn statement to the police before talking to a lawyer in which he denied firing a weapon at any time in the recent past. mostly harmless



		Xaja (Hive Bee) 09-24-04 11:16 No 532977				Oh yes
						GSR (Gun Shot Residue) is very detectable. It comes from primer and propellant of bullet. Barium nitrate, antimony sulphide from centrefire high cal, lead azide from .22 rimfires usually. Analysis may be of Pb by AAS, for example. GSR even gets deposited on anyone standing nearby. Also detectable are uncombusted cellulose nitrate, glyceryl trinitrate and stabilizers. A scary scenario: In the UK, only 5ng of explosive residue required to convict a person of manufacturing a bomb (1999 figures, may be lower after 9/11 etc). So, imagine this: 1 person handles (tiny amount! )explosives, then holds $10 bank note for 5-10 seconds. Hands to person 2. Person 2 hands bank note to person 3. 3 hands to person 4. Person 4's hands swabbed with acetone, extract analysed for PETN by ESMS spectro. PERSON 4 CAN BE CONVICTED - OVER 5ng TRANSFERRED!!!! No shit, SWIX has seen lab reports on the tests when doing forensic chem papers!! Scary stuff huh?? *FriedPiper* I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.



		jsorex (Hive Addict) 09-24-04 11:31 No 532979				Wouldn't then wearing plasic gloves eliminate...
						Wouldn't then wearing plasic gloves eliminate the problem? After the immoral act, one could get rid of them and one's clothes, take a shower, etc. I know a criminal psychologist, that once said that most murderers do not have it in them to live for years without confessing to somebody. Even if you did, all it takes is that you get drunk at a bar and start opening your mouth.



		Ascension (Hive Bee) 09-24-04 16:06 No 532995				Gloves! haven't you watched enough movies to...
						Gloves! haven't you watched enough movies to know that black leather gloves must be worn when committing any act of crime? If one was wearing full length sleeves and long pants, gloves, then these things disposed of after i guess it would be pretty hard for any residue to be left on the culprit. Make sure to wash your hair thoroughly too, better yet, shave it off! Your an individual just like everyone else.



		Xaja (Hive Bee) 09-25-04 01:13 No 533042				Yup
						That is how you would best beat it. Throw away or better yet destroy evrything you were wearing, the outer layer at the very least. And be careful that the act of doing that doesn't incriminate you either, looks pretty strange if you suddenly burn you pants and jacket in the back yard... Also, don't touch the body. It is quite easy to take latent fingerprints off cadavars using iodine, ninhydrin and even superglue I think. Even if those are not the correct reagents (can't remember, its been a while...) it is easy, we went over this stuff in labs... Also my disclaimer:>> SWIX does not condone murder at all, terrible act, do unto others etc etc, but if some freak touched my little girl, for example, ah.... you get the picture... Ha ha ha funny you state 'black' gloves, why must they be black?!? Although me being me, I would buy the black ones, ha ha ha... *FriedPiper* I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.



		Ascension (Hive Bee) 09-25-04 04:29 No 533073				*you ask why they must be black? me* faints...**
						you ask why they must be black? me faints... oww what have we come to. Everyone knows they must be black! Try committing a crime wearing pink gloves and you'll see why black must be worn! Your an individual just like everyone else.



		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 09-25-04 04:48 No 533075				skip the gloves
						Skip the gloves. Just go out into the back yard and start shooting at tin cans. When the police arrive, drop the gun. No way to tell whether the residue was from the crime, or the petty offense of shooting a weapon in the city limits. mostly harmless



		abolt (Hive Addict) 09-25-04 04:52 No 533076				When the police arrive, drop the gun.
						When the police arrive, drop the gun. .............and if you are black, have a vest on and a lawyer present. He took Blood Money They took Blood



		Xaja (Hive Bee) 09-25-04 07:07 No 533091				Long as it different gun, is all...
						Because of course the weapon used will be linked to the crime. I know I know pretty obvious point but had to say it... But yeah makes sense, have other gun somewhere, fire that few times and the interference from the GSR will obscure the original GSR present.... You psycho freaks out there getting this... Shit hope no beez are stupid enough to actually try knocking someone off. Much as I love The Sopranos, its not a good idea if you value your freedom or are at least a decent human... *FriedPiper* I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.



		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 09-25-04 09:38 No 533097				Isn't that what I said in the second post of...
						Isn't that what I said in the second post of this thread? BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm



		kingsofsleep (Hive Addict) 09-25-04 23:09 No 533179				riddle me this then
						Shit hope no beez are stupid enough to actually try knocking someone off. Much as I love The Sopranos, its not a good idea if you value your freedom or are at least a decent human... So why are you giving advice then...? You think this bee is gonna be out somewhere doing some illegal target shooting? There is no excuse for murder. This sets a fine example for any LE monitoring this site... Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)



		Xaja (Hive Bee) 09-26-04 01:10 No 533191				I do agree...
						...that morally it is very borderline. However, free speech must prevail. Its ok, Loompanics will have whole sections of books devoted to this probably, so it is all available anyway. Besides, the dumb crims will still get caught no matter how much they read up on forensic science. They will be seen by three different sets of neighbours packing black rubbish sacks in the boot of the car while 'peering around suspiciously' at 3am, or the gun everyone knows they have will disappear forever, or whatever stupid mistake they make will bring them down. And the smart people know not to do it, so its all ok, SWIX can assure you.... Anyways wait until next week, I'm doing a post on good suicide technique; and a small piece on correct methods of sacrificing small live animals in your basement for satan. But no no sorry really not meaning to offend anyone KOS, you do make a valid point. Actually dude, you get to the crux of the matter and endorse the principle in your signature, if you think about it... *FriedPiper* I don't have a drug problem! ...I've got heaps.

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