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	The Couch

	All 58 posts		Subject: What do we benefit from psychedelics?		Please login to post		Thread expires		Down

		jsorex (Hive Addict) 10-21-04 20:38 No 537008				What do we benefit from psychedelics?
						Well. Many times you here the argument that psychedelic drugs should be legal etc. because they are not dangerous, not addictive, not this or that. But I'm more interested in hearing about the possible explicit benefits that y'all think that psychedelic drugs could offer us. Second, why do you use them, what is a good reason for starting to use psychedelics. Have you ever suggested them to some one? Why?
		Blind_Angel (Hive Bee) 10-21-04 22:47 No 537033				The not dangerous isn't exactly true, since...
						The not dangerous isn't exactly true, since they tend to increase the risk of bad trip if the persone isn't in a good set and setting (we all know that so i won't go farther). Also i suggest them to depressive friend or down friend, i sit them and offer them a good setting and try to help them. Psychedelic got me out of a small depress and i don't see why it wouldn't work with other. /}/_//\//) /-|/\//¬/=/_
		Captain_America (Über-Führer die Ironie) 10-21-04 23:02 No 537035				Second, why do you use them, what is a good...
						Second, why do you use them, what is a good reason for starting to use psychedelics For dark experiences and oldschool chemistry atmosphere.
		dumbjanitor (Hive Bee) 10-22-04 00:02 No 537045				urrgh, why to use psychedelics
						becuase this world blows, big time. It is a lifeless, commercialized, mass produced, copycated, ignorant, and depressing world. When i used psychedelics all of those above mentioned things plauged my life. I wanted to die. I don't think psychedelics are any less dangerous then any other drugs. I'd argue that that they have the potential to have greater damgae to people givin the conditions. But i know %100 i wouldn't be here if not for lsd. It opened my ignorant mind to a higher state. After many trips i wanted enlightenment, not drugs. I want knowlage now instead of an ultimate high. Maybe when i have no more worries and have learned what i want i'll go back but... psychedelics should be available to those looking for enlightenment, not "colors" or other stupid stuff stupid people say.
		Captain_America (Über-Führer die Ironie) 10-22-04 00:53 No 537053				...
						becuase this world blows, big time. It is a lifeless, commercialized, mass produced, copycated, ignorant, and depressing world. When i used psychedelics all of those above mentioned things plauged my life. I agree 100%. But isn't it better that you know this and are an unhappy bee than to not know?
		java (Hive Addict) 10-22-04 01:26 No 537058				Psychedelics
						Actually psychedelics are spiritual sacraments put on earth to help us see our way through the chaos of what the "real " world has to offer.  Nicotine, caffeine, alcohol are also "drugs" very much abused and cause much pain and suffering with elegant chronic illness such as emphycema, lung cancer, COPD , liver disease, cirrhosis of the liver.....and the list goes on. Yet when someone has a psychological cold, or some inbalance  with the history of having used one or more of these sacraments the whole thing is over dramatized.  Get it right,  the sacraments are to help us , and just like fire , one can get burned if not careful and not used to help one self......enough said, .........java It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees...Emiliano Zapata
		epistemologicide (Hive Addict) 10-22-04 04:04 No 537075				holistic
						was going to be deeper and more involved reply,but im sick of getting down rated.. but let me just say, a tool for nature worship. to become a centred vibration of every thing, involving taste, texture , smell, of (holistic)nature..its not an experience with out all those factors playing a stimulus for a personal connetion. thought promotion..(after the experience) your right though there is and can be MORE.. http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf no more sacred laws
		dumbjanitor (Hive Bee) 10-22-04 05:27 No 537088				wow
						wow, i think about that alot captin, i'm not sure, sounds stupid and millions have said it, but ignorance is bliss sometimes. I look at how happy and clueless alot of people are and i envy them. I wish i could go along and sing and dance in a gap commercial, but thats so not happening. I wish i didn't have to numb myself to the point of death to just simply live. I very much live in reality now and its very deppressing. Sometimes I wish I was in collage somewhere with a mom and a dad, and a life and all. Yeah I'd take that over drugs anyday. If you can be happy without tricking yourself into it, thats the best life one could have in my eyes.
		b159510 (Professional Student) 10-22-04 07:45 No 537095				Awesome visuals
						Now I use them strictly for entertainment purposes. Hook up the computer to the plasma TV, put in a beethoven CD and take advantage of the cool selection of colors dancing to music that the people at microsoft were kind enough to include in media player 9. I like to sit in my recliner about 5 feet away from the screen, surround sound, playing beethoven's 9th, etc. If we would have had this technology when I was in high school, I would have never bothered with getting laid. This is way cooler. (just don't tell the wife that) psychedelics should be available to those looking for enlightenment, not "colors" or other stupid stuff stupid people say When someone has the knowledge to make their own, they don't need anyone's authorization to use them. I think seven years of chemistry classes entitles a person to use the drugs they can responsibly make by themselves, on themselves, for any reason they choose. Hows that for enlightenment. Assayer
		Jade (soccer mom) 10-22-04 09:17 No 537107				The name says it all
						In my post Post 536353 (Jade: "The War on Drugs, Terence McKenna-style...", General Discourse) there are some good links on this.  Here are some end notes from one of the pages.... 1. “Hallucinogen” and “hallucinogenic” were first used in print by Donald Johnson, an English physician, in a pamphlet entitled The Hallucinogenic Drugs (Christopher Johnson, London, 1953). Johnson, however, borrowed the term from three American physicians, Abram Hoffer, Humphry Osmond and John Smythies, who did not use it in print until the following year. 2. In a letter to Humphry Osmond dated 30 March 1956, Aldous Huxley proposed that mescaline be called “phanerothyme.” Huxley penned the sprightly lines: To make this trivial world sublime, Take a half a gramme of phanerothyme. Osmond replied with the following ditty: To fathom Hell or soar angelic, Just take a pinch of a psychedelic. Much of the credit must go to Ralph Metzner and Timothy Leary for popularizing “psychedelic.” In the spring of 1963, the premier issue of Psychedelic Review was published in Cambridge, Massachusetts, under the editorship of Metzner, Osmond and Leary, among others. Psychedelic Review is now defunct, but the term is perpetuated by the title of the present Journal of Psychedelic Drugs. Huxley’s odd term did not fare so well. From Huxley’s letter it is clear the word meant “soul-manifester” to him. Greek thymos, however, means “organ of passion, temper and anger,” and “phanerothyme” would indicate a drug which made intense emotions manifest. Few molecules can penetrate what is known in biology as the "blood brain barrier". Those that do go directly to the neuron. After that it becomes a matter of their ability to imitate one of the neurotransmitters. Our neurons have a safety device for this type of situation. The neurotransmitters have a unique molecular shape and can only fit in a specific slot on the synaptic surface. Mind-altering drugs all operate on mimicking one of the neurotransmitters.     There's a terrorist behind every Bush.
		Jade (soccer mom) 10-22-04 09:26 No 537108				the DMT Tykes
						Time and Mind - The Tykes Partial Transcription of a taped workshop by Terence McKenna May 26/27, 1990 - New Mexico The Tykes... Well, I suppose it's an invitation to describe a DMT trip, which is never to be passed up. Because I think, I think what we're talking about here is a continuum, I'm talking about a very narrow band of experience. A continuum of experience that comes through tryptamine hallucinogens: DMT, Psilocybin, and the DMT-Harmine combination... and that's it... Mescaline doesn't, isn't what I'm talking about. Ketamine certainly isn't what I'm talking about. Datura certainly isn't what I'm talking about. And some of these are plants, and some of them are synthetic drugs, but it's a very narrow spectrum of these highly visionary ones, and then the most visionary, the quintessence is DMT. I mean, I think that DMT is as intense as any drug should ever get; I don't ever want to be more loaded than that. I don't think you can be more loaded than that and come back. You know? What happens on DMT for me, and this is based on, you know, composite image of many experiences, and I've confirmed it to some degree with other people, but I was talking to somebody the other day, somebody who had just done it, and I said, "what did you think?" and they said: "It's the most idiosyncratic thing there is." and I thought, what a wonderful description, that's exactly what it is - it's pure idiosyncraticness. It's so idiosyncratic that's all there's there - it's like idiosyncrasy without an object, is what DMT is. When you smoke this, the onset is very rapid. 30-45 seconds, you know? There's this feeling which comes over your body - half arousal, half anesthesia. The air appears to suddenly have been sucked out of the room because all the colors brighten visibly, as though some intervening medium has been removed. And then there's a sound, like a piece of bread wrapper or cellophane being scrunched up and thrown away. A friend of mine says this is radio-entelechy leaving the anterior fontanelle at the top of your head. [laughter] I'm not sure I want to line up with that... but a membrane is being ripped; something is being torn. And then there is a total (what Mircea Eliade called in a wonderful phrase) "a complete rupture of the mundane plane". [laughter] You know? That's like a hit and run accident except the car came from hyperspace, you know? A complete rupture of the mundane plane. And you fall back into this hallucinogenic space, and what you see is a slowly rotating red and orange kind of thing, which, over the years we've nicknamed, uh, 'The Chrysanthemum'. And it's.. this represents some kind of disequilibrium state that has its roots in the synapses. What's happening as you're watching this Chrysanthemum is that millions and then hundreds of millions of DMT molecules are rushing into these serotonin bond sites in the synaptic cleft and disrupting the serotonin and switching the electron spin resonance signature of these neural junctions in this 'other' direction. And this is taking, you know, 30 or 40 seconds, and there's this rising hum, this ____nnnmmmmMMMMMMMM that rising tone; the flying saucer tone of Hollywood B movies... you actually hear this thing. And then, if you've taken enough DMT (and it has to do entirely with physical capacity: Did you take, did you cross the threshold?) something happens [clap] which... for which there are no words. A membrane is rent, and you are propelled into this 'place'. And language cannot describe it - accurately. Therefore I will inaccurately describe it. The rest is now lies. [laughter] When you break into this space, you have several impressions simultaneously that are a kind of gestalt: First of all (and why, I don't know) you have the impression that you are underground - far underground - you can't say why, but there's just this feeling of immense weight above you but you're in a large space, a vaulted dome. People even call it 'The DMT dome' I have said, had people say to me, "Have you been under the dome?" and I knew exactly what they meant. So you burst into this space. It's lit, sofeted lighting, some kind of indirect lighting you can't quite locate it. But what is astonishing and immediately riveting is that in this place there are entities - there are these things, which I call 'self transforming machine elves', I also call them self-dribbling basketballs. [laughter] They are, but they are none of these things. I mean you have to understand: these are metaphors in the truest sense, meaning they're lies! Uh, it's a jeweled self-transforming basketball, a machine elf. I name them 'Tykes' because tyke is a word that means to me a small child, and I was fascinated by the 54th fragment of Heraclites, where he says: "The Aeon is a child at play with colored balls" ... and when you burst into the DMT space this is the Aeon - it's a child, and it's at play with colored balls, and I am in eternity, apparently, in the presence of this thing. There are many of these things, but the main thing that's happening is that they are engaged in a linguistic activity of some sort, which we do not have words for, but it's visible language. They are doing the visible language trip. When you break into the space, they actually cheer! The first thing you hear when you pass across is this 'hhhyeaaaaaayyy' - you know the Pink Floyd song? "The Gnomes have Learned a New Way to Say Hoo-Ray"? This has gotta be what these guys were talking about; how else could it be? It doesn't make any sense otherwise. [laughter] You break into this space... the gnomes say hoo-ray! And they come rushing forward and they, and, and the thing then that happens is... and people say "is there risk, to DMT? it sounds so intense. Is it dangerous?" The answer is: yes, it's tremendously dangerous; the danger is the possibility of death by astonishment. [laughter] And you must prepare yourself for this eventuality, because you are so amazed. Amazement seems to be the emotion that has torn loose and swamped everything else - I mean astounded? When was the last time you were genuinely 'ASTOUNDED'? I mean, I think you can go your whole damned life without being 'ASTOUNDED'... and this is astonishment, you know, raised to the N-th degree to the point that your jaw hangs... I mean you're like this: And it raises issues: like you say, "Jesus, ah, huhh ... I must be dead!" And you, and the weird thing about DMT is it does not effect what we ordinarily call the mind. The part that you call "you" - nothing happens to it. You're just like you were before, but the World has been radically replaced - 100% - it's all gone, and you're sitting there, and you're saying, "Jesus, a minute ago I was in a room with some people, and they were pushing some weird drug on me, and, and now, what's happened? s s is this the Drug? Did we do it? Is this it?" And meanwhile, these things are saying: "Do not give way to amazement; Control your wonder." in other words, they try to bring you down. They say, "Don't just goof out on this; pay attention. PAY ATTENTION... to what we're doing." "OK, what're you doing?..." [laughter] Say this is what we're doing, and then they proceed to sing objects into existence. Amazing objects. Objects that are Faberge Eggs, things made of pearl, and metal, and glass, and gel, and you, when you're shown one of these things, a single one of them, you look at it an you know, without a shadow of a doubt, in the moment of looking at this thing, that if it were right here, right now, this world would go mad. It's like something from another dimension. It's like an artifact from a flying saucer. It's like something falling out of the mind of God - such objects DO not exist in this universe, and yet, you're looking at it. And they're clamoring for your attention. " 'k at this! 'ook at This! Look at THIS!" and they pull these things... and each one, you look into it and it begins to open into this wonder that you must fight. You say "No, don't look at it, look AWAY from it!" because it's so wonderful that it's swamping my objectivity and destroying my ability to function in this space. Well, then they say "do"... And the objects that they make have the peculiar ability to themselves generate this linguistic 'stuff' which condenses as other objects. So beings are making objects, showing you objects, the objects are turning into beings and making other objects, these beings and objects, they jump into your chest - and then they jump back out. They jump into your body and disappear into your body, and then they jump back out, waving these things, just throwing this stuff in all directions. They are - the word that comes to mind is: they are Zany. It's like a Bugs Bunny cartoon, uh, gone mad. And all of this energy - they are elves. This is what elves are. It's this weird thing, where they love you - or they like you a lot, but you can tell that their sense of humor is Weird. And that you must be very careful of the deals you cut with these things. and and in fact I've spent so much time trying to understand what is this. It has different kinds of feelings about it. One is (and this really threw me for a loop when I figured this out) after many many of these trips, and analyzing this place I kept going to, I finally realized: "this place is... somebody very weird... it's their idea of a reassuring environment for a human being! It's like a playpen. It's this warm. well lit, secure, womblike environment, and when I break into it they these things, the elves and the toys, are toys! These are things to amuse me. The way you would hang, uh, cubes and blocks above a cradle... a playpen, you know? Because children are supposed to coordinate shapes and bright colors. That's what these things are: they are toys to try and get me to coordinate my perception in this place. It's a holding area of some sort - someone's created this and is watching me. OK - that's one metaphor for what it is. Another metaphor is... I took this stuff to Tibetans, to the Amazon. I gave it to Tibetans, they said "this is the lesser lights, the lesser lights of the Bardo. You cannot go further into the Bardo and return. This takes you as far as you can go." When I gave it to shamans in the Amazon, they said "It's strong - but this is, these are the ancestors. These are the spirits that we work with. These are ancestor souls. We know this place." Well then, the third and final metaphor, because when you're in that place you have such complex emotions - very complex emotions - something weird is going on with time, because you perceive your body image as infantile. You seem to have a very large head, and a very body, and very short limbs. And, you know, I dunno what that's about. But they're, uh, this... Then the last facet of it that I want to mention is: there is this 'you must be on your toes' thing - don't let these guys get behind you. They are tricky. And their elfin humor may not be your idea of a good time. [laughter] And I said to myself, where have I had, before, this feeling that I'm having now. It's a feeling of being with people that I can't trust, but who want to help me, and who seem to be trying to, uh, cut a deal. That was the word that gave me the clue: "deal". And then I remembered, "I know where I felt like this - I felt like this in the Crawford Market in Bombay when I had a kilo of Gold in my pocket and I was trying to trade it for hashish, and I was surrounded by all these Arab hash traders, and they were saying "we're your friend, just wait, don't worry..." And say "yes, I KNOW you're my friend and I'm NOT worrying, but, you know, brbrbrrr... perform!" And so then I said: "Aha the creatures in the DMT flash are Traders..." They're Traders. And that's what this weird feeling is - it's a business environment in there. [laughter] We're having a business meeting. They're saying... and then the objects! Then I remembered- the objects... they're trade goods! They're saying: "How about thissss! How about This!". What do they want? What do I have that they want?... They're meme traders, is what it is. And I think that what they wanted, and got, and took - without bothering to even say a word about it - was everything I knew about the I Ching. And they're like art collectors. They say "well, the idea is primitive, and primitive in its execution, but with a certain kind of internal integrity that one really must respect..." So they're primitive art collectors, and what they left me with, then, was, uh, my own, you know, their model of time. Which is the closest thing to one of these hyperdimensional objects. The objects themselves cannot exist in this world. But the blueprints of them can. And this afternoon, if the computers are up and running, I will run through this 'time idea' with you. And I think I will be able to convince you that it has a weirdly crafted patina to it, that, the feeling is it didn't spring from human minds, it, it is a creature of another kind of mental universe. And I think, you know, aside from the crisis on this planet and our own personal difficulties this is the real challenge of the psychedelic thing; is to meet the inhabitants and trade with them. And set up a relationship. The notion traders. They can trade hyperspacial notions from across the cosmos. And this may be all the extraterrestrial contact that we're, uh, going to be vouchsafed, you know? http://www.shawnnacol.com/pP-tykes.htm There's a terrorist behind every Bush.
		Jade (soccer mom) 10-22-04 09:31 No 537109				......
						More Tyke Musings... excerpted from a taped workshop by Terence McKenna February 1992, Esalen DMT is the strongest hallucinogen there is. If it's possible to get more loaded than that, I don't want to know about it, and I say so when I'm there. I say, 'My God, if you can get more loaded than this, keep it away from me.' So that's it, it's the strongest. It's also the shortest acting. DMT when smoked in most people is, return you to normal in under ten minutes. Under ten minutes! Now, this is interesting because people who think there's nothing to this should actually invest the ten minutes to find out what's, you know... A ten minute DMT trip is worth twenty years of academic pharmacology, art history, psychology and all this other malarkey. Because then you just say, 'Okay, I got it, I got it...' Another very interesting thing about DMT is, it occurs naturally in the human brain. Well, now what's going on here? He's saying the strongest drug, the fastest drug, is the most natural drug? It means that, you know, you don't have to sail off into 3-hydroxy-4-peridal- enmethylmarubyshtick or something like that to get into the exotic realms. No -- a human metabolite, which takes only ten minutes to undergo its entire exfoliation and quenching, is the strongest of all. Well, then, what is it? What does 'strong' mean? What is a strong psychedelic? You know, it's highly personal. Every psychedelic trip is. But what happens on DMT for a large number of people -- I mean, we don't have any statistics, but -- it is a completely confounding experience. I mean, you may have had the expectation, you might think if you had never had a psychedelic experience that it sort of begins like the Bach B minor fugue, and goes from there as you rise into the realms of light and union with the deity or something like that. That's not what happens on DMT. What happens on DMT I referred to this morning: a troop of elves smashes down your front door, and rotates and balances the wheels on the afterdeath vehicle, present you with the bill and then depart. (laughter) And it's completely paradigm shattering. I mean, you know, union with the white light you could handle. (laughter) An invasion of your apartment by jeweled self-dribbling basketballs from hyperspace that are speaking demotic Greek is *not* something that you anticipated and could handle. Sometimes people say, 'Is DMT dangerous? It sounds so crazy. Is it dangerous?' The answer is, only if you fear death by astonishment. (laughter) Remember how you laughed when this possibility was raised. And a moment will come that will wipe the smile right off your face. (laughter) One thing that endears DMT to me is, I like to say, it doesn't affect your mind. It doesn't seem to affect your mind. In other words, you don't change under the influence of DMT. You don't become a kinder, gentler person. YOu don't sink into, you know, a line of drool from one corner of your mouth as you sit there twitching. *You* don't change. What happens is, the world is completely replace, instantly, 100 percent, it's all gone. And what is put in its place, not one iota of what is put in its place was taken from this world. So its a 100% reality channel switch. They don't even retain three dimensional space and linear time. It's not like you go to an exotic place, Morocco or New Guinea. It's like reality is swapped out for something else, and when you try to say what it is, you realize that language has evolved in this world, and it can serve no other, or it takes years of practice. So what you're looking at is literally the unspeakable. The indescribably falls into your lap. And when you try -- you're loaded, right, you're there, and you're trying to explain to yourself what's happening, and so this is like you try to pour water over the transdimensional objects in front of you, the water of language. And it just beads up and flows off like water off a duck's back. You cannot say what's there. And I've spent, I don't know, twenty-five years fiddling with this. It's become the compass of my inspiration, trying to say what is on the other side of that boundary. Just two large tokes away at any given time is this non-Euclidean, non-Newtonian, irrational, un-Englishable place, but it's not smooth and empty and clear. That's not what gives it its indescribability. What gives it is indescribability is its utter weirdness, its alienness, its power to astonish. What happens to me when I smoke DMT is, there's a kind of going toward it. There's a sequella of events which lead to the antechamber of the mystery. I mean, you take a toke, you feel strange. Your whole body feels odd. You take a second toke, all the oxygen seems to have been pumped out of the room. Everything jumps into clarity. It's that visual acuity thing. You take a third toke if you're able, and then you lay back, and you see this thing which looks like a rose or a chrysanthemum, this orange spinning flowerlike thing. It takes about fifteen seconds to form, and it's like a membrane. And then, you break through it. You break through it, and then you're in this place, and there's an enormous cheer which goes up as you pass through this membrane. Some of you may know the Pink Floyd song about how the gnomes have learned a new way to say hoo-ray? They're waiting. And you burst into this place, and you're saying, you know, 'Geez, you know, this stuff is really speedy.' (laughter) That's like describing a Space Shuttle launching as noisy, you know? (laughter) And you say, 'Am I all right? Am I all right?' That's the first question, and so then you run your mind around the track, and you say, 'Hmm. Heartbeat normal? Yeah, normal, heartbeat normal. Pulse normal? Breathing? Breathe breathe breathe, yes.' But what's right here, right here and from here out is this thing which, no matter how much science fiction you've done, no matter how much William Burroughs you've read, no matter how much time you've spent in the company of the weird, the bizarre, the outré, and the peculiar, you weren't ready. (laughter) And it's completely real. It's in a way more real than the contents of ordinary reality, because, see how the shadows here are muted and there's a lot of transitional zones from one color to another and so forth? This isn't like that. This is crystalline, clear, solid, you can see the light reflected in the depths of these objects, and everything is very brightly colored, and everything is moving very, very rapidly. And there are entities there. It's not about calling them up or the whisperings of them. No, they're IN YOUR FACE. (laughter) And they're right here, and they're worse than in your face, because what they do is, they jump into your chest and then they jump out. And you have to keep saying, 'Keep breathing, keep breathing, don't freak out, pay attention.' And the entities speak to you, and they speak both in English and another way which we'll get to in a minute. But in English what they say is, 'Do not give way to wonder. Hang on. Don't just go gaga with disbelief. Pay attention. Pay attention.' And what they're trying to do is they're trying to show you something. They are very aware of the fleeting nature of this encounter. And they say, you know, 'Don't spiral off into amazement, and start raving about God and all that. Forget that. Pay attention to what we're doing.' And then, what they're doing is they're dancing around, they're jumping around, they're emerging explicitly out of the background, bounding toward you, jumping into your chest, bounding away, and they offer, they make offerings. And they love you, that's the other thing. They say this. They say, 'We love you. You come so rarely. And, you know, here you are. Welcome, welcome.' And they make these offerings. And the offerings are objects of some sort. And now remember, you are not changed. You're exactly the person you were a few minutes before. So you're not exalted or depressed. You're just trying to make sense of this. And the objects which they offer are like, Faberge eggs, or exquisitely tooled and enameled pieces of machinery, but they don't have rigid outlines. They objects are themselves somehow alive, and transforming and changing. So when these creatures -- I call them 'tykes' -- when these tykes offer you these objects, you like, you grok it, you look it and immediately, because you are yourself, you have this realization: my God, if I could get this thing back into my world, history would never be the same. A single one of these objects is somehow, you can tell by looking at it, this would confound my world beyond hope of recovery. It cannot exist. What I'm being shown is a tiny area where miracles are transformed. And the creatures, the tykes, are singing. They are speaking in a kind of translinguistic glossilalia. They are actually making these objects with their voices. They are singing these things into existence. And what the message is, is 'Do what we're doing. You can do what we're doing. DO IT.' And they get quite pushy about this. They say, you know, 'Damn it, DO IT!' And you're saying, 'Bu...bu...bu...bu...' And they say, 'No, DO IT! Do it NOW! DO IT!' And you say, 'I can't handle this,' you know, and then this kind of reaction goes on for awhile. Well, then, I actually...I don't take credit for it, it was not willed, but like something comes up from inside of you. Something comes out of you, and you discover you can do it, that you can use language to condense objects into existence in this space. It's the dream of all magic, but here it is, folks, happening in real time. And then they're just delighted. They just go mad with delight and turn somersaults and turn themselves inside out and they all jump into your chest at once. And after many encounters of this sort...I mean, when I first did DMT, I couldn't bring anything out of it. I mean, I just said, you know, 'It's the damnedest thing I've ever encountered and I can't say anything about it and I don't think I ever will be able to say anything about it.' But by going back repeatedly and working at it, I think I've gotten a pretty coherent -- well, let's not go that far. (laughter) I think I've got a pretty clear metaphor anyway for what's happening in there, and I think a lot of people have this experience. When you talk to shamans, they say, 'Oh, well, yes, the helping spirits. Those are the helping spirits. They can help you cure, find lost objects, you didn't know about the helping spirits?' And you say, 'Well, I knew, but I, I had no idea that it was so literal.' And they say, 'Oh, no, that's the helping spirits.' But then, the other thing they say, if you press a shaman, if you say, 'Well, what exactly is a helping spirit?' They say, 'Well, a helping spirit is an ancestor.' You say, 'You mean to tell me that those are dead people in there?' They say, 'Well, yes, ancestor, dead person. You didn't know about ancestors apparently. This is what happens to people who die.' And you say, 'My God, is it possible that what we're breaking into here is an ecology of souls?' That these are not extraterrestrials from Zenebelganooby or Zeta Reticula Beta. These are the dear departed. And they exist in a realm which, for want of a better word, let's call eternity. And somehow this drug, or whatever it is, is allowing me to see across the veil. This is the lifting -- you want to talk about boundary dissolution. It's one thing to get tight to your partner, it's quite another to get tight to the dear departed of centuries past. That's a serious boundary dissolution when that happens. What these creatures want, according to them, is they want us to transform our language somehow. And I don't know what this means. I mean, at this point in the weekend and in my life, we all are on the cutting edge, and nobody is ahead of anybody else. Clearly we need to transform our language, because our culture is created by our language, and our culture is toxic, murderous, and on a downhill bummer. Somehow we need to transform our language, but is this what they mean? That we're supposed to condense machines out of the air in front of us? How does this relate to the persistent idea, promulgated by Robert Graves and other people, that there is a primal language of poetry? That poetry as we know it is a pale, pale thing, and that at some time in the human past, people were in command of languages which literally compel belief. They *compel* belief, because they don't make an appeal through argument or metaphor. They compel belief because they are able to present themselves as imagery. You know, William Blake said, 'If the truth can be told so as to be understood, it WILL be believed.' And it's very confusing, because you wonder, have people been doing this for thousands of years? And if so, have they always encountered this tremendous urgency on the other side? If people have been doing it for thousands of years, why is there this urgency on the part of these entities? And who exactly and what exactly are they? It appalls me, you can probably tell, that I have to talk about this, because I am not, this is not my bailiwick. I mean, I'm a rationalist who's just had a very weird set of experiences, but I am a rationalist. I mean, I have no patience with channeling, you know, the lords of the many rays, the divas and, you know, there's this whole thing going around about disincarnate intelligence, mostly under the control of fairly, shall we say, non-rigorous thinkers. (laughter) But I like to think that I am a rigorous thinker, and yet, here I am, telling you that, you know, elf legions await in hyperspace one toke away. The difference between my rap and, you know, the finned horned folks or somebody like that is that we have an operational method for testing my assertion. We can all smoke DMT, or you can make it your business to now find out about this, and see for yourself. And not everybody agrees with me. I mean, some people say it wasn't anything like that. But some people agree, and I think if you get two out of ten agreeing with a rap like this, then you'd better pay attention. (laughter) http://www.shawnnacol.com/pP-tykes.htm There's a terrorist behind every Bush.
		buz (Hive Bee) 10-22-04 12:55 No 537140				lost income
						psychedelic drugs can hurt your earning potential, if you have a straight job. i had a very cute girl friend in college, and she made me chose beetween doing lsd and dating her. sometimes i still think about her.
		biotechdude (Hive Bee) 10-22-04 12:57 No 537141				only path? or quickest and best?
						<<It opened my ignorant mind to a higher state Is the only way to 'enlightenment' via psychedelics?  Could Bees ever get there on their own?  Should everyone take psychedelics?  Or is it just a path that works for some people? I'm just curious, psych-users please share thoughts...
		Saddam_Hussein (Hive Bee) 10-22-04 13:01 No 537142				no
						Is the only way to 'enlightenment' via psychedelics?  I'm curious if Bees could ever get there on their own.  Should everyone take psychedelics?  Or is it just a path that works for some people? No. But it remains a very good catalyst. The most important precursor is a healthy brain, capable of thinking both rationally and independantly. President of the Iraqi Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction Development Society
		dumbjanitor (Hive Bee) 10-22-04 15:04 No 537161				b159510....
						b159510 fucking kudos to you, if you are of a few people that can do what you do, then screw around all you want, I was just more generalizing what most people from my (stupid) point of veiw. I hear all the time this mindless rhetoric from people (that i know at least) who trip alot. Is the only way to 'enlightenment' via psychedelics?  Could Bees ever get there on their own?  Should everyone take psychedelics?  Or is it just a path that works for some people? Again in MY opinion (which means crap) i was very, very ignorant before psychedelics (still am but not as bad). I never thought about anything but getting high before taking them. Drugs were drugs, now to me at least they are tools. Of course through more established methods one could totally become enlightend, its just a short cut in my eyes. You may be able to realize shit in one night, that would take years of medititaion and self-reflection. So psychedelics have there value in life, but its totally conditional in my eyes. I wasn't trying to say psychedelics should only be used for enlightenment, just ... it shouldn't be abused the way i see it abused. If you can synth acid, then whatever, your exempt.
		buz (Hive Bee) 10-22-04 18:32 No 537179				if lsd leads to enlightenment, i'd bee there
						and i'm not. so it doesn't. (in my experience) blessings upon all life forms except the ones you hate
		weedar (Gaylord) 10-22-04 18:52 No 537183				hey what
						you are brighter than most of the bulbs around here anyway. "seriously thishomo internet shit needs to stop" -mcrandom
		KiZaDm (Hive Addict) 10-23-04 15:33 No 537305				psychedelic benefits?
						sadly, i feel psychedelics do not benefit most people who use them. those who derive benefit from them seem to bee those who are drawn to the experience again and again like moths to a flame regardless of the consequences as opposed to people looking for a cool way to watch a plasma screen. for me it was the overwhelming feeling that they offered an understanding of sorts, even if it couldnt bee expressed in words. i often felt(during a trip) as if i was just around the corner from some cosmic truth, as if the mystery of life and death would bee revealed to me if only i went a "little farther" next time. looking back on 20+ years of use, the benefits i derived from using psychedelics are for the most part, simple. they have shown me that the world is indeed a very psychedelic place even when it appears to bee anything but. that there is more to this world then meets the eye(especially when the eyes are closed), and that the Mystery of existance will forever remain a seductive mystery. Ph # 954-287-0023
		buz (Hive Bee) 10-23-04 23:05 No 537346				compared to what?
						on the other hand, without extensive psychedelic journeys, me and diamond might have been total assholes. true jokes aside, any other veteran trippers notice how easy it is to see the psychedelic 'edge' of the world, without tripping? i've noticed it alot. all i have to do is go blank for about 30 seconds, and i'm there. a bump of meth and a good joint almost does it, if i'm not employed in some sort of nazi cleaning campaign. in fact, if i find myself waiting in a line at the grocery store, i'm forced to either read the covers of the scandal rags, or risk entering another dimension. truly (imho), the ticket is disrupting the normal mental chatter that keeps us grounded in 'reality'. once that noise stops, you're out of there, and extraneous stimulous comes into the sensory apparati. psychedelic drugs are a stepping stone..a good one for those of us that are too stupid or undisciplined to actually sit still for an hour and let our thoughts subside. we hold the world together with our inner chatter. an overwhelming experience tends to quiet this chatter. after that, the danger seems to bee in getting addicted to overwhelming experience, while totally missing the cause of the silent mind. the most intense experience i've ever had was sitting still, in silence, for eight hours. lsd tends to give us a scape goat, in a sense...we think its about the drug, but it isn't...its about the cessation of our normal thought-feedback loop. on the face of it, what could bee easier than sitting thoughtless, for eight hours? yet who here has ever tried it? its an incredibly difficult undertaking; requiring balls of steel. you will lose your mind in the effort. most americans never get a slight taste of this. we're constantly busy, even when we're tripping. that's only one of the two cents i have on the subject.
		LaBTop (Daddy) 10-23-04 23:52 No 537361				?
						I've done it, sitting naked in the warm coastal waters of a tiny desolated tropical island, feeling all these little creatures exploring my outer rim, not disturbing them, and they not disturbing me. Sitting there for a whole night, forces you to return to your inner self, letting loose and do not any form of concentrating on anything. You will need to try it once. Never felt any happier. No drugs involved, no need for that. Tried it before with drugs, it's no comparison at all, drugs distract. LT/ WISDOMwillWIN
		b159510 (Professional Student) 10-24-04 00:27 No 537372				What I gained from drugs
						For me, the real benefit I had from using these drugs was simply to be able to look at everything from a different perspective than what I had before. It changed everything for me, and that is no exaggeration. There was my view of the world before, and now there is my view of the world after. The change was instantaneous, and I think it would be difficult to achieve such a rapid change in perspective without these drugs, though perhaps not impossible. What is interesting to me is that my perspective only changed once, even though I have used these drugs several times. I study biochemistry and biology now as a hobby. The chemistry of life is truly an amazing thing. The more I learn, the more I realize how complex and precious all life is. Drugs have not provided me with any answers for anything, but I will always be grateful for how they allowed me to ask different questions. So if I want to learn something, I will study. If I want to lose myself in music and color, I will take DMT an hour after SAMe. I wish I could speak on the subjects of personal realization or the ultimate truth or enlightenment etc., but I can't. Those things have no meaning to me. Assayer
		Stonium (BEE-OTCH) 10-24-04 01:16 No 537383				Drugs don't produce enlightment, IMO
						Is the only way to 'enlightenment' via psychedelics?  Having done my fair share of hallucinogenic drugs, I'd say that LSD probably does not produce "enlightenment," although tripping may very well give a person a bit of insight into how his or her own thought processes work. This is probably only true for people who already have thought deeply about how their minds work. I don't believe there is any definitive information on the subject, however. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. -Howard Zinn
		PolytheneSam (Master Searcher) 10-24-04 01:19 No 537385				Astral travel is far superior to psychedelics...
						Astral travel is far superior to psychedelics as far as spirituality goes. http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
		LaBTop (Daddy) 10-24-04 01:27 No 537388				The amazing thing is,
						the creatures camping on your submerged skin, definitely don't like the sun. As sunrise approaches, they all crawl down to their workplaces in the sand, leaving you with that special itchy feeling of release, that they didn't choose to sting or suck you. LT/ PS: this last remark will be too tentative for some of you to not insert some snotty remarks. Always wait for the sunset. Until you see the bottom again. WISDOMwillWIN
		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 10-24-04 01:38 No 537392				Neocons and spirituality?
						Neocons and spirituality? Interesting combination... BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm
		wellbie2002 (Hive Bee) 10-24-04 02:36 No 537414				take a trip
						hell you can take a trip and not go anywhere saves gas , plus you get to see shit thats not really there and best of all talk to things that are not there and you got a good reason to be crazy
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 10-24-04 05:02 No 537434				"Astral travel is far superior to ...
						"Astral travel is far superior to psychedelics as far as spirituality goes." This does a lot to explain how the place you consider reality exists only in your own mind. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		PolytheneSam (Master Searcher) 10-28-04 01:35 No 538226				http://home.ripway.com/2003-11/39191/pics/Lagun...
						http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
		epistemologicide (Hive Addict) 10-28-04 06:44 No 538273				culture of the trip
						none of this western practice has any objective destination, (suggstons to benifits) why the fuck hasent any one mentioned CULTURE, like peotye in the indian culture..the amazon? etc etc fawking etc do any of you know the role of psyc's in indiginous culture (you know the ones that didnt fuck the earth and practice is about survival and sustainability) even the australian aborigines have a few mind altering compunds, to be in the spirit wolrd..exactly jsorex, how do WE benifit from psycho cotex frying? daddy is emphatic with his nature worship post, i find a tranquil meaning and purpose and 'life experience' when i read vibes like that, goes into my subconcioussness..even on a meth crash hearing words like that would lift my spirits i said a tool for nature worship so im not going to 'hell' like the rest of you... perhaps one should sek out the culture of the trip, and experience its role that has an objective result, rather than fucking doing it in this consumer greed sub culture.. look at the colors man... fucking what the fuck.. i will now stop doing trips , and go and do it with some fucking primative maniacs, and experience some thing rather than nothing which is what i get when i take the synthetic crap here lsd...fucking hippies and ravers (no offence zib) peyote and the indian depths dmt and the amazon freaky tweakers mushys and the holland frees energy wind mills and peverted liberated and pro choice sex ... mushys are out of what culture ?(i made the holland one up) http://217.159.169.126/~creator/public/ZPE/files/consolidated_knowledge.pdf no more sacred laws
		Captain_America (Über-Führer die Ironie) 10-28-04 13:34 No 538323				he is not the real sam, i am the real sam
						he is not the real sam, i am the real sam
		Little_fat_boy (Stranger) 10-29-04 20:20 No 538603				psychedelics are cool because
						psychedelics make not interesting things,interesting!,im sure most of you agree as well yay, ive got mail!
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 10-29-04 21:03 No 538606				Nazi Cleaning
						The ghost of ChuckJumboPommeDeTerre wrote... if i'm not employed in some sort of nazi cleaning campaign. Does meth often get you into one of these distracting campaigns? can't flush this
		P6_mmc (Stranger) 10-30-04 01:12 No 538649				Indian's
						why the fuck hasent any one mentioned CULTURE, like peotye in the indian culture..the amazon? etc etc fawking etc Indian seen visions , thought to be the future , then told a lot of indians what the vision 's where about, the the indians would go out and kill a bunch more indians, Then them Indians would do some hurb smoking,peoyotey poppin,and go kill the first indian's , then the white man came so they didnt have to kill no more Indian's the just killed whitey
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 10-30-04 01:31 No 538655				They Killed Whitey?
						Reverse that and you got it right. The jews think they've been picked on but it's nothing compared to the hit the populations of native americans have taken. can't flush this
		buz (Hive Bee) 10-30-04 06:38 No 538703				just realized
						that remark i made about 'nazi-cleaning campaigns' could have been mis-construed as some sort of anti-semetic effort. but that wasn't what i meant. i was refering to the often humorless, almost militaristic impulse (beehind speed) of needing to rearrange the pile of crap in the garage. (don't want to risk pissing off jews) and yes, its o.k. to piss off nazis, i think. (even if jesus would bee nice to them)
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 10-30-04 06:58 No 538708				Blitzkreig Vacuuming Frenzies
						I didn't connect Nazi cleaning with aucshwitz-like thoughts either. I mainly pictured you having intense blitzkrieg style frenzies of household vacuuming and such. Ever accidentally vacuum up an insect? Cold weather earwigs must be ever vigilant against the ravages of the vacuum cleaner in my domain. Although if I were on a few 100mcg of LSD I would be much more inclined to see the world from the earwig's perspective, to then become more connected with their native divinity and thusly to be much nicer to them...... Before I then sucked them up with the vacuum cleaner. can't flush this
		BlaseDeviant (Hive Bee) 10-30-04 20:51 No 538772				Because it's like a vacation.
						Because it's like a vacation. Or viewing things from another perspective. Or simply because they're novel. I saw a post on legality, and I'd really love to see a real reason why psychedelics were outlawed (let alone other drugs, but that's another story)? Or, if not a real 'public' reason, at least why the DEA (or government/whoever, if anyone wanted/pushed the DEA to) themselves wanted them outlawed/how they benefit? So differently divine...
		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 10-30-04 21:52 No 538779				Hasn't that been covered a few hundred times...
						Hasn't that been covered a few hundred times already? BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country! www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm
		hypo (Balanced Ego) 10-30-04 22:18 No 538789				oh yes!
						together with: penis length, blah... *drool* boobs *drool* bush vs. kerry why are drugs illegal?? black holes/quarks/wanky-tee-wank over-unity science is religion grind and soak pills in whatever solvent du-jour *whine* don't be so evil to us n00bs hey, you can get euphoria from opiates!!! and so forth and so on... with some effort, one could replace all members by ai-bots - nobody would note the difference... HΨ=EΨ
		MargaretThatcher (Hive Bee) 10-30-04 22:25 No 538794				My dear boy
						Associating quarks with over-unity is like associating science with religion. Are you, or have you ever been a Liberal? YES / NO
		hypo (Balanced Ego) 10-30-04 22:31 No 538797				true..
						at least the quark wanking was original and sometimes thought provoking. corrected. HΨ=EΨ
		MargaretThatcher (Hive Bee) 10-30-04 22:34 No 538800				Apologies in advance for OTC
						Hypo, why don't you have a picture? The rest of us are brave enough to reveal ourselves, why don't you? Are you, or have you ever been a Liberal? YES / NO
		hypo (Balanced Ego) 10-30-04 22:38 No 538802				because...
						...i'm too lazy. and i find that feature distracting to annoying. HΨ=EΨ
		MargaretThatcher (Hive Bee) 10-30-04 22:48 No 538807				OK
						Indeed, it represents the triumph of perception over reality and all that stuff. But, as an esteemed member, you need to have a cerebral and representative montage of some kind. Are you, or have you ever been a Liberal? YES / NO
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 10-31-04 00:53 No 538834				Agreed. Hypo, you've been called upon to ...
						Agreed.  Hypo, you've been called upon to produce an avatar.  Are you up for the challenge, or some kind of weak and puny liberal . My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 10-31-04 01:13 No 538837				Suggested Hypo Avatar
						can't flush this
		LaBTop (Daddy) 10-31-04 01:34 No 538840				This one would go nice with
						someones sig : WISDOMwillWIN
		LaBTop (Daddy) 10-31-04 01:37 No 538841				Myself, I got a bit tired of this one :
						This one I like, at the moment : Perhaps, Hypo likes this one : I can PM you the upload address. LT/ WISDOMwillWIN
		paranoid (Quick-witted Quibbler) 10-31-04 01:45 No 538842				Looks like that scare-crow has been eating too
						Looks like that scare-crow has been eating too much straw.  It's passing through him mostly undigested.  He doesn't seem too bothered by it though. My ideal vacation - Juxtaposed along the precipice intersecting reality and fantasy (i.e. wanking).
		hypo (Balanced Ego) 10-31-04 08:35 No 538888				hey, i had one of those thingies...
						iirc it was an orang-utan or some other ape, but i removed it when i found out that the picture was gone. so if you have to associate a picture with me (pah, fido veterans don't need no steenkin' pictures!), then just imagine a huge orang-utan scratching his ass or picking his nose... > I can PM you the upload address. you can upload images and use those as your avatar - RTFFAQ!! this one is too psychic/mystic... HΨ=EΨ
		jsorex (Hive Addict) 10-31-04 20:53 No 538957				Yes this topic has been discussed earlier.
						Yes this topic has been discussed earlier. Actually I posted it to add to the discussion here: Post 537462 (jsorex: "Ascension asks why are some drugs illegal and...", Law and Order) Thus far no serious replies.
		abolt (Comandante A) 11-01-04 02:42 No 539017				wolf in sheeps clothing
						I UTFGoogle for "hypo pic" and this popped up: hypo...........is there something you're not telling us? http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp
		Love_N_it (Beeman) 11-01-04 03:30 No 539026				do you know my ex-wife?
						talk about a wolf in sheeps clothing.... psychedelics piss me off. they did open my eyes to another level of 'awareness' and I still can't do anything about it. but I'm about to throw my hands up and start living like a dog instead of just thinking like one. sometimes, I regret not doing enough drugs to consider myself as 'wasted'. for some reason it still seems logical that the only way one person could understand most people, is if they've touched on the experiences that almost everybody has had. since I've never tried it, people that make a living peddlin' ass... still make me jealous. don't come back either.
		hypo (Balanced Ego) 11-01-04 14:14 No 539077				heh...
						> I UTFGoogle for "hypo pic" and this popped up: ITYHTMTOYH... HΨ=EΨ
		Saddam_Hussein (Hive Bee) 11-01-04 15:03 No 539083				!
						> I UTFGoogle for "hypo pic" and this popped up: ITYHTMTOYH... TRAITOR!  President of the Iraqi Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction Development Society
		Jade (soccer mom) 11-07-04 15:00 No 540200				For Hypo....
						There's a terrorist behind every Bush.
		Flash (Stranger) 11-10-04 05:25 No 540748				Religion, Medicine, Recreation.
						There are three main purposes to the use of any drug, including psychedelics. They are religion, medicine, and recreation. Recreation is well known, but with psycheledics it is impossible for non-users to begin to accurately imagine what the effect is, as opposed to stimulants or depressents which many people have taken in their legal or prescription forms. Psycheledics provide a temporary world of magic, in which the normal patterns of thought and emotion are magnified by hundreds to millions of times and altered in many different ways, which is why they can be so enjoyable or provide other benefits for the more serious minded. Medicine. Psychedelics are useful for treating alcoholism, and I've read of a number of successful studies in which near death terminally ill people took them and achieved much peace with the world. I also know that personally psycheledics leave me with a two or three day after effect in which I am much calmer than usual and I am able to think very clearly and that I can focus with ease. I think that psycheledics can be very useful for reaching answers to the unanswered questions that are taking up mental resources subconciously. Religion. The least explored part of psycheledics and drugs in general, and the one that intrigues me the most. I became originally interested in this use of drugs when I learned that one has to be at least twenty five percent Native American in order to use peyote legally. I figured that if some people can use drugs for religious purposes, but the government must discriminate based on race who can do so, then there really must be something to it. I recently checked out the website of a Native American Church and read through the guestbook, very interesting. A lot of the posts tell people to take medicine (peyote) frequently. Two of the newer entries were from people who abused drugs and alcohol as teens or in their twenties and who were lost in life, and then they took peyote for the first time. It seemed to me that they didn't use peyote when using drugs because they perceive it as religion and as something their parents and relatives did. Like many young people, they rebelled against their parents beliefs and practices by using drugs. After they used peyote, they stopped abusing drugs, got their life in order, and now use it as often as they can and support others doing the same. The last act of any government is to loot the nation - Mike Rivero, whatreallyhappened.com

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