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All 291 posts Subject: The Official Election Thread Please login to post Thread expires Down

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 00:26
No 539286
User Picture       The Official Election Thread

Things are off to a bad start.

So far with 4 states reporting:

Bush 34

Kerry 3

But they aren't very important states.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 01:03
No 539291
User Picture       update

As of 5:00pm PST on NBC tv news.

Kerry now has the advantage in the electoral college.

Kerry 77
Bush 66

I'm not sure but I think it's whoever tips the scale past 269 that wins it.

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 01:05
No 539293
User Picture       Yup, pulling ahead. Bush still leads the ...

Yup, pulling ahead.

Bush still leads the popular vote.

Unfortunately Bush is slightly ahead in Florida and Ohio.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 01:14
No 539296
User Picture       Hilarious

It'll truly be hilarious if Kerry wins the electoral college but Bush wins the popular.

Bush did a lot of campaigning in states where really didn't need to electorally because he badly wants to win the popular vote. Supposedly he was hurt by the fact that Gore won it last time.

Anybee catch an explaination of that possible scenario in which both candidates get 269 electoral votes and somehow Bush is president with John Ritter (Edwards) as the vice president?

Bizarrre but possible enough for it to get mention on the news.

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 01:34
No 539303
User Picture       God damn it. Bush is up to 89 over Kerry 77...

God damn it. Bush is up to 89 over Kerry 77 and is leading the popular vote.

But Kerry is now ahead in Ohio.

The republicans are leading in buth the House and Senate.

Someone nuke America before it's too late.

spaceman1964
(Newbee)
11-03-04 01:39
No 539304
User Picture       DAMN!!!!!

bush 102 kerry 77.... the ship could be sinking!

may the meth godz smile upon me or i shall sleep long time

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 02:05
No 539308
      155 to 112. Who are all these people voting...

155 to 112.

Who are all these people voting for Bush? I don't know anyone voting for Bush, or anyone who knows anyone that is voting for Bush.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 02:08
No 539310
User Picture       3 Biggies Coming Up Soon

Wisconsin, Minnesota and Pennsylvania should drop their electoral numbers quite soon.

I'm guessing Pennsylvania will go to Kerry.

The other two states have been too close to have any idea but if Kerry mananages to win these three and can then get Ohio he'll be in.

California is going to take forever to get their numbers in but Kerry will win it there.

Last moment numner check here

Kerry 112
Bush 156

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 02:13
No 539312
User Picture       Penn will go to Kerry and bring along a fat 21

Penn will go to Kerry and bring along a fat 21 votes.

I'm waiting for Claifornia to start dropping numbers too. Kerry needs to win CA to have a shot.

Ohio and Fl are back towards Bush again.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 02:22
No 539314
User Picture       Handy Web Electoral College Breakdown

Anyone know of a decent web address/reference that shows/lists the electoral college number breakdown by state?

I still don't have a good map or listing of how many electoral votes that individual states are allowed.

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 02:26
No 539315
User Picture       Just go to yahoo. The front page has a map...

Just go to yahoo. The front page has a map with roll overs

Milk rots your brain.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-03-04 02:40
No 539316
      Don't Panic Yet

172-112

Word on the bottom of the rock is that voter turnout has increased by as much as 15 percent.

I would hardly think these people have been motivated by Bush's record.

I believe OHIO is the place where it will be won or lost.

http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 02:42
No 539317
User Picture       Carbon Copy

Funny how so far it's a carbon copy of the last election as for who's won which states.

And like the last one the lynch pin states seem to bee Ohio and Florida. Who according to that Yahoo map appear to be leaning towards Bush.

I'm guessing Florida will also take forever to fully drop their numbers. Apparently there's an election watchdog/lawyer there for nearly every voter.

So far Bush leads in Florida of the counted votes. Kerry's ahead in Pennsylvania. Ohio's too close to have any idea.

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 02:45
No 539318
User Picture       If Bush wins, he'll celebrate by levelling...

If Bush wins, he'll celebrate by levelling Falujah

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 02:51
No 539321
      Cut & Run

Bush had been characterizing the way Kerry would run the Iraq war as "cut and run". But supposedly all indicators are that that's exactly what Bush plans on doing after the election.

So you're probably right about that Unob.

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 02:55
No 539322
User Picture       I don't think Bush plans on pulling out ...

I don't think Bush plans on pulling out anytime soon. There was just a major deployment of reserves to Iraq a week ago.

My guess would be that he would stay in at least 3 more years, then pull out right before the next primaries and declare victory, putting the neo-cons in a favorable position to win the next election.

Milk rots your brain.

amine
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 03:01
No 539324
      171 to 112 fucking satan is winning.

171 to 112

fucking satan is winning. I have lost faith in democracy, maybe americans aren't intellegent enough to elect their own leaders...

Scottydog
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 03:06
No 539325
User Picture       The Chimp

176-112 so far in favor of the Chimp. What a punk, I can't believe all of these brain washed fuckers. 3/4 of the people who live on my street voted for Bush. mad

Refuse/Resist

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 03:07
No 539326
User Picture       not over yet

Kerry is bound to pick up PA. If he gets CA, it will come right down to Florida and Ohio again.

Milk rots your brain.

geezmeister
(Of Counsel)
11-03-04 03:17
No 539329
      Damn, Dawg...

Damn, Dawg... you live in fucking friendly neighborhood, don't you? I don't see a Kerry sign in my whole neighborhood, except for the one in my front yard.

mostly harmless

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 03:25
No 539331
User Picture       California's Electoral #

How many electoral votes does California contribute? I couldn't find the numbers on that Yahoo page.

Isn't it around 50?

can't flush this

Trenchcoat
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 03:27
No 539333
User Picture       Re: Kerry is bound to pick up PA.

Kerry is bound to pick up PA. If he gets CA, it will come right down to Florida and Ohio again.
If Kerry doesn't get CA I vow that I will shit my pants and post pictures of it to The Hive. FL may be messy again because there's 0.25 million absentee ballots not being counted till thursday in miami-dade. That's worse than the 2000 election where only overseas military absentee ballots were uncounted until after the election. I am going to bed. It'll be like Christmas in the morning if I wake up and find presents under a tree in my living room.

Better loving through chemistry.

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 03:33
No 539337
User Picture       California is 55 votes

California is 55 votes

Milk rots your brain.

pikkolo_z
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 03:38
No 539340
      higher

bush -182
kerry -112

hell i think my whole state voted for bush . dumb fuckers

Now go learn yourself some proper english and rub my feet. ~KOS~

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 03:40
No 539341
User Picture       Tack on 55

So those of you who think it's hopelessly slipping away in favor of Dubya go ahead and tack on a "tentative but almost for sure" 55 on to Kerry's current numbers.

can't flush this

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-03-04 03:41
No 539342
User Picture       Fuck

Make that 197-112

http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 03:49
No 539343
      If Kerry does win CA and picks up a few of the

If Kerry does win CA and picks up a few of the minor states, even if Bush wins FL and OH, Kerry can still win. CA is worth more than both FL and OH combined.

The numbers still aren't in for PA yet, but that is probably another 21 votes for Kerry.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 03:53
No 539345
User Picture       Ohio the lynch pin?

Kerry got Penn

Kerry 133
Bush 203

Kerry absolutely must win either Florida or Ohio but I think I just heard Tim Russert say that Ohio is absolutely _the_ one he must now get.

Abolt wins a cigar.

can't flush this

dandred
(Stranger)
11-03-04 03:55
No 539346
      election info

A good site is http:news.bbc.co.uk

dandred

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-03-04 03:58
No 539348
User Picture       Yep

It's safe to assume another 76 kerry votes for California and Pennsylvania.

It will probably all come down to how many 18 -30 year old people got of their asses and voted in Ohio.

http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 04:02
No 539349
User Picture       The Latest

Kerry 199
Bush 207

NBC went ahead and gave Kerry California and Washington.

can't flush this

Love_N_it
(Beeman)
11-03-04 04:07
No 539351
      it would just be nice

if one of them is determined the 'true' winner by tomorrow morning, so we don't have to go through all that scandal bullshit.

spank the monkey

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 04:25
No 539355
User Picture       It's getting down to the raisins.

Bush 210
Kerry 199

Bush has had a pretty constant lead in Ohio and Florida.

Milk rots your brain.

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 04:31
No 539356
User Picture       Bush is about to win Florida, but it's ripe...

Bush is about to win Florida, but it's ripe for a good lawsuit

Electronic Voting Machine Woes Reported

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - Voters nationwide reported some 1,100 problems with electronic voting machines on Tuesday, including trouble choosing their intended candidates.

The e-voting glitches reported to the Election Protection Coalition, an umbrella group of volunteer poll monitors that set up a telephone hotline, included malfunctions blamed on everything from power outages to incompetent poll workers.

But there were also several dozen voters in six states — particularly Democrats in Florida — who said the wrong candidates appeared on their touch-screen machine's checkout screen, the coalition said.

In many cases, voters said they intended to select John Kerry (news - web sites) but when the computer asked them to verify the choice it showed them instead opting for President Bush (news - web sites), the group said.

Ralph G. Neas, president of People for the American Way Foundation, which helped form the coalition, called the summary screen problem "troubling but anecdotal."

He and other voting rights advocates said the disproportionate number of Democrats reporting such problems was probably due to higher awareness of voter protection coalitions.

"Overall, the problems of outright voter intimidation and suppression have not been as great as in the past," Neas said.

But the reports did highlight computer scientists' concerns about touch screens, which they say are prone to tampering and unreliable unless they produce paper records for recounts.

Roberta Harvey, 57, of Clearwater, Fla., said she had tried at least a half dozen times to select Kerry-Edwards when she voted Tuesday at Northwood Presbyterian Church.

After 10 minutes trying to change her selection, the Pinellas County resident said she called a poll worker and got a wet-wipe napkin to clean the touch screen as well as a pencil so she could use its eraser-end instead of her finger. Harvey said it took about 10 attempts to select Kerry before and a summary screen confirmed her intended selection.

Election officials in several Florida counties where voters complained about such problems did not return calls Tuesday night.

A spokesoman for the company that makes the touch-screen machines used in Pinellas, Palm Beach and two other Florida counties, Alfie Charles of Sequoia Voting Systems Inc., said the machines' monitors may need to be recalibrated periodically.

The most likely reason the summary screen showed wrong candidates was because voters pushed the wrong part of the touch screen in the first place, Charles said.

He said poll workers are trained to perform the recalibration whenever a voter says the touch screen isn't sensitive enough.

"Voters will vote quickly and they'll notice that they made an error when they get to the review screen. The review screen is doing exactly what it needs to do — notifying voters what selections are about to be recorded," Charles said. "On a paper ballot, you don't get a second chance to make sure you voted for whom you intended, and it's a strong point in favor of these machines."

The Election Protection Coalition received a total of 32 reports of touch-screen voters who selected one candidate only to have another show up on the summary screen, Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a coalition member.

David Dill, a Stanford University computer scientist whose Verified Voting Foundation also belongs to the coalition, said he wouldn't "prejudge and say the election is going smoothly just because we have a small number of incident reports out of the total population.

"It's not going to be until the dust clears probably tomorrow that we have even an approximate idea of what happened," Dill added.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=5&u=/ap/20041103/ap_on_el_pr/eln_electronic_voting_2

Milk rots your brain.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-03-04 04:37
No 539359
User Picture       I feel sick

Nearly 60% of the Ohio vote is in and his lead has increased.

The apocalypse is on schedule.

http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 04:37
No 539360
User Picture       according to polls on msnbc

It will probably all come down to how many 18 -30 year old people got of their asses and voted in Ohio.

The youth vote was suprisingly disappointing yet again.
17% by some estimates.
mad

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 04:39
No 539361
User Picture       The lead hasn't changed in hours.

The lead hasn't changed in hours. It's been about 52 - 48 in both Ohio and Florida since the polls openned.

Florida is about done with 95% reporting.

Milk rots your brain.

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 04:42
No 539362
User Picture       Nader's one-percenters are once again ruining...

Nader's one-percenters are once again ruining the planet to prove a point. The point is appearently that they are idiots.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 04:44
No 539363
User Picture       The Young Vote

Apparently the amount of new and young voters who were recently polled aren't as in favor of Kerry as it might have been thought. Supposedly the black & hispanic vote is hugely in favor of Kerry and many of these voters considered "new" did not vote at all in the last election. I'm not sure if Ohio can count on that making a difference for them or not.

Hopefully there's a huge pocket of them in some district there that hasn't yet been tallied.

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 04:46
No 539364
User Picture       Nothing much good has ever come from Ohio.

Nothing much good has ever come from Ohio. I'm sure tonight they'll make no exception.

Milk rots your brain.

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-03-04 04:46
No 539366
User Picture       idiots

I agree, a vote for Nader is equivalent to a vote for Bush, yet those voting for Nader feel as if they are protesting against some "unknown" cause. At least from my perspective.... I have heard many in my area say that they are protesting the election by voting for Nader. I suggest to them that they should just protest the election by staying home and not voting at all.

fuck it,

m_e

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-03-04 04:56
No 539369
User Picture       Rock The Vote!!

Oh Yes, "Rock the Vote" sounds so good when you are in line to get into a P-Diddy concerto, or to hear Skinny Puppy for that matter. The sad truth is that all of those that registered to vote whilst in line to enter a musical venue, or in line to hear michael moore speak, are more than likely singing the sad lament of Afroman, i.e. "I couldn't get my ass off of the fucking couch to vote because I got high". It is this attitude that has killed Kerry, I have heard the ignorant proclaim, "I am not going to vote this year because "W" is just going to "steal" the election again. Great Attitude, you ignorant fucks, of course these people reside in states such as FL, and OH.

I guess we still can find faith in Jesus,

right Unob?

m_e

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 04:57
No 539370
User Picture       sad but true

those voting for Nader feel as if they are protesting against some "unknown" cause.

I have heard this as well.

Too bad it's a protest that will go unnoticed. It's like burning down the house because you wanted to move out...but now you have no place to go to. mad

I have already started my travel plans.

Bees, anyone want to join me in expat life?

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 05:10
No 539371
User Picture       Which way are you headed?

I still haven't made up my mind where to move to yet.

Milk rots your brain.

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-03-04 05:13
No 539372
      Travel

For some reason Estonia has always been on the top of my list in the event of an American collapse. I have absolutely no reason backing my consideration of Estonia. But contrary to the books I read as a child i.e. Alexander and the terrible horrible no good very bad day, there are days such as this, even in Australia. I have found no reason to believe anything would happen to this extent in Estonia, (at least in childhood literature) crazy

eesti keeles?

m_e

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 05:13
No 539373
User Picture       Looks like the fucktard is going to win.

Looks like the fucktard is going to win. He only needs Ohio, Colorado, and New Mexico to win, and all of them are leaning towards Bush.

Milk rots your brain.

amine
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 05:25
No 539374
      Can You Say D I E B O L D?

I can and I can also say rigged election.

If the fucker wins who knows what our grim future holds...

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 05:28
No 539375
User Picture       Nader's concession

Nader gave his concession speech. He doesn't seem to regret that his self-centered quest for fame and power will spiral the world into a pit of chaos and result in thousands of deaths.

Milk rots your brain.

amine
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 06:08
No 539378
      Bush wins...

Its all over now....269 to 207, he is going to take new mexico which counts as 5 votes.

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 06:15
No 539379
User Picture       The GOP has strengthened it's lead over ...

The GOP has strengthened it's lead over Congress as well. The last four years will be nothing in comparison to the clusterfuck the next four will bring. The US is now officially the Republican States of the Neo-conservative Christian Fundementalist Whackos.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 06:17
No 539380
User Picture       Blame it on Evangelical Christians

If you need a scapegoat.

Supposedly 25% of Ohio's votes came from that block.

can't flush this

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 06:18
No 539381
User Picture       Isn't there a law against clinically insane...

Isn't there a law against clinically insane people voting?

Milk rots your brain.

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 06:20
No 539382
      How about

clinically insane people running the biggest superpower in the world??

What? The Land of the Free? Whoever taught you that is your enemy! - Rage Against The Machine

psychokitty
(«»)
11-03-04 06:57
No 539386
      Future prediction

If the fucker wins who knows what our grim future holds...

Patriot Act II, III, AND IV; a long war in Iraq; a more terrible economy; richer rich people; more minorities becoming more minor; another terrorist attack or two; Michael Moore winning best picture for Farenheit 9/11; all of the Bush conspiracies coming to full light -- too late; a legitimate probe into Halliburton and a court battle that'll cost millions but that won't lead to any convictions much less arrests; perhaps another invasion of an Arab country (just for good measure and continued practice); gays having to still go to Canada for a marriage license; weapons of mass destruction in Iraq still remaining AWOL; the continued raping of the natural world in favor of big business; AND, if Bush had his way, a book-burning bonanza (as a bonus, of course).

Anybee have future projections to offer?

What about our home here at the Hive? Do you think we'll be safe for another four years? I wonder.

Ohio's just been designated by CNN a green state, BTW. It's not over yet, folks

Precursor2112
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 06:58
No 539387
      fuck....

here comes the apocalypse...least I found some tassafraz..

God knows that we need it...

"I cook not for myself but for my country..."

amine
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 07:44
No 539388
      Florida again.....

The Current stats are 249 for Bush, 242 for Kerry.

Ohio has been declared too close.
Kerry is probably going to take Wisconsin,(no thanks to Nader). Bush is going to take New Mexico and probably Nevada. Which makes Ohio the deciding state for this years election.

It seems like its going to be another Florida 2000.

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 07:45
No 539389
User Picture       Who won??

Is it over yet?

You beez posting seem to bee ahead of live tv here, dunno how.

What? The Land of the Free? Whoever taught you that is your enemy! - Rage Against The Machine

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 07:55
No 539391
      THERE IS NO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do he spite us so, what did we do to deserve this? Well looks like its time for plan B!

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 08:04
No 539392
User Picture       Bush won??

Edit: nevermind found yahoo

What? The Land of the Free? Whoever taught you that is your enemy! - Rage Against The Machine

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 08:06
No 539393
      sorry

looks liek we have to chalk this one up to the Evil GOP

hypo
11-03-04 08:07
      bummer...
(Rated as: insignificant)

Scottydog
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 08:08
No 539395
User Picture       Yahoo

Yahoo says it is 254-242 for the Chimp. The propaganda channel says that Ohio is leaning towards the Chimp 51-49%.

Refuse/Resist

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 08:21
No 539398
      its ok

As a life long Dem.and progressive and a left coast person, Iam sorta glad he won, because all the bad shit that America going to go through in the next few years, its good that a Dem isn't going to be in power, when the economy of the world goes down and the US hits the skids, people will be begging for help, while the Repubilcans help themselves, they will cry out for sanity. But I think it will be to late

weedar
(Gaylord)
11-03-04 08:44
No 539401
User Picture       but

Isn't there an issue with the provisionary(sp?) votes?

"seriously thishomo internet shit needs to stop" -mcrandom

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 09:49
No 539405
      What takes Ohio so long to vote?

Do they vote as slow as they drive in Ohio?

It's now 254 to 252.

Milk rots your brain.

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 09:56
No 539406
User Picture       lawyers will make a fortune off this election

Equipment Failures Delay Final Iowa Vote Tally

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Problems with vote-counting machines in two small Iowa counties will delay final results from Tuesday's presidential election for at least one day, a top state official said early on Wednesday.

Deputy Secretary of State Barb Huey said optical scan machines used to tally votes in Greene and Harrison counties, which have a combined total of about 15,000 registered voters, needed repairs.

Huey said the state was also still in the process of counting several thousand absentee ballots.

According to CNN, President Bush (news - web sites) held a lead of just under 12,000 votes in the state, with 97 percent of precincts reporting.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041103/pl_nm/election_iowa_problems_dc

Provisional Ballots Are Election Wild Card

By The Associated Press

Provisional ballots, a presidential wild card in battleground Ohio, are part of the national election reforms prompted by the election meltdown in Florida four years ago.

The ballots are a fail-safe for voters who come to the polls but find their names missing from the rolls, or whose qualifications to vote are somehow challenged. An estimated 1 million or more such voters were turned away from the polls because of clerical errors or other mistakes in 2000.

Provisional ballots are set aside and evaluated after the election to see which ones should be counted.

The ballots are required for the first time nationally this year, but some states already used them, and state rules for dealing with them vary. In Ohio, where provisional ballots were in use even before 2000, the ballots are not counted for 10 days.

In the meantime, election workers will review the ballots and discard any cast by ineligible voters.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041103/ap_on_el_pr/eln_provisional_voting

Milk rots your brain.

spaceman1964
(Newbee)
11-03-04 12:29
No 539421
User Picture       Swis just woke up........

and unfortunately didnt have any sweet dreams mad , and now its 269 for the chimp and 231 for kerry with ohio going to bush mad . can we at least hope for a tie? crazy

may the meth godz smile upon me or i shall sleep long time

wareami
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 13:54
No 539427
User Picture       Morality vs Life&death

Okay....This sucks!
But I guess as much can be expected when the general populace is lead to believe lies, half truths as a means of blindsiding the people!
Kerry has not conceded on the OHIO ballot tally's.
This is still too close and not favoring Kerry.
Republicans are pressuring Kerry to accept the defeat and at the same time, Bush and Henchmen are being gracious enough to allow Kerry&Co "A Time of Reflection" (aka...Reality Check so to speak) before Bush announces Victory!

I think Kerry should stay the course until all votes are in "Entirely" and if that entails waiting 11 days for the Overseas/absentee and provisional Ballots and it's extremely unnerving that the Republicans insist so early that Kerry "Do The Right Thing" and accept defeat!
I'm not happy with this election process and Bush should be held accountable for allowing a recurrance of 2000 indecisions to still permeate this democratic process!

What do you all think?
Should Kerry Back off under pressure to "Move On" or should he challenge the result?
I say Kerry should stay the course until it's unaminous in Bushes favor!

If the shoe_throws fits...Ware It_out

tina_craig
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 15:50
No 539449
User Picture       Very disappointing...

First year I ever voted and being let down by some dumbass who has already proven his incompetence and so sad he is most likely going to be given 4 more years to fuck us all!!!!

Tina Craig worked for me!!

psyloxy
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 17:12
No 539458
User Picture       Kerry concedes his defeat.

Kerry concedes his defeat. My condolence to everybody who had hopes for a change to the better.

Statistically there's no chance left for Kerry to win Ohio thru the absentee and provisional ballots, major TV stations say.

--psyloxy--

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-03-04 17:28
No 539459
User Picture       > Bush should be held accountable for ...

> Bush should be held accountable for allowing a recurrance of 2000 indecisions to
> still permeate this democratic process!

Huh? You can blame him for a lot of things, but the stupidity of the American public? Hardly.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

dumbjanitor
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 17:56
No 539467
      oh god

i totally forgot about ashcroft, 4 more motherfucking years, we are done people, thats it, we're all dead

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 18:00
No 539468
User Picture       eastern europe for me...

Which way are you headed?

I am thinking Prague, at least for now. I plan on leaving after winter (might as well enjoy the nice weather here) and getting certified for TEFL over there.
I have family in Rome and Milan and might try out Italy after spending some time in Prague.

I am beyond disappointed in the youth-vote turnout. I have a real sinking feeling about life in this country for next decade at least. I never had any real faith in the democratic turnout but I thought it would have been closer in OH (my home state btw).
What is happening to this country that people actually believe the crap that Bush spews?
Do you ever feel as though this enclave (here in the HIVE) is the only group of enightened (somewhat) yanks in the country?
How can people be so narrow-minded?

It just too damn depressing... frown

Well, it's just time time to gear up and start working to take away seats in congress in 2 yrs.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-03-04 18:05
No 539470
      time to face the truth

as opposed to 2000 it's obvious to anyone that bush is
a) a war monger
b) dumb
c) a religeous fanatic
and yet he got a bigger percentage of votes than in 2000 and won the popular vote too!

ergo the us-american public has decided that they agree with attacking foreign
countries and killing hundreds of thousands.

the next 4 years stop blaming the government - it's the population.
sometimes truth hurts.

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 18:26
No 539471
User Picture       sad but true

the next 4 years stop blaming the government - it's the population.

Very true and not as hurtful as you would think. While I do object to being personally lumped in with the lowest common denominator, I fully recognize the inherent ignorance of the voters. They have spoken.
So I guess my choices are to stay and fight a pointless battle or cut my losses and move on. I am leaning towards the latter.

It's funny you brought up the gay marriage thing - it's really my deciding issue. I am active in the community and have many close friends and even family that are gay. I find it reprehensible that we are turning into such an exclusive society. Our government should be working to include as many people as possible but instead it serves only to exclude those that it doesn't see fit into it's narrow moral parameters.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

tina_craig
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 18:45
No 539473
User Picture       Hilary Clinton?

I heard and correct me if this appears to be wrong, but that the Democratic party chose John Kerry not to win because Hilary Clinton has to finish her term as a senator and that the next presidential election of 2008 she will be running for president. Has anyone else heard this?

Tina Craig worked for me!!

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 18:56
No 539476
      it really hurts

This loss hurts worse than when my Dad died. I feel so much remorse for my country. I really think Americans had a collective labotomy or simple lost their fucking minds!

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-03-04 18:58
No 539477
User Picture       The election wasn't lost by the people.

The election wasn't lost by the people. It was won by Diebold.

Milk rots your brain.

buz
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 19:02
No 539478
      garrff

garrfff.
garf and blech.

tina_craig
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 19:13
No 539480
User Picture       So, what does this presidential outcome mean...

So, what does this presidential outcome mean to the Hive and its practices?

Tina Craig worked for me!!

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-03-04 19:59
No 539483
User Picture       Congratulations to the American public, they...

Congratulations to the American public, they got the president they deserve.

> So, what does this presidential outcome mean to the Hive and its practices?

Nothing?
The interwebnet thingie extends past US boarders. What does the US president have to do with us non-Americans?

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

tina_craig
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 20:10
No 539485
User Picture       Good deal. Though Bush sux ass!!

Good deal. Though Bush sux ass!! We need a libertarian president IMHO.

Tina Craig worked for me!!

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-03-04 22:55
No 539520
      Guys, stop worrying. It is not the apocalypse.

Guys, stop worrying. It is not the apocalypse. You still have far more control over your life than the government does. Furthermore, we have been pissing off other countries for nearly 30 years, with 9/11 as the only consequence in recent memory. With any luck we will continue doing so for the next four years, and get out unscathed.

And if it is the domestic agenda of the president that worries you, moving to a different country is certainly an option.

psychokitty
(«»)
11-03-04 23:27
No 539522
      Well, just for starters . . .

So, what does this presidential outcome mean to the Hive and its practices?

For one, greater surveillance of the Hive's members.

With President Bush back in power, the Patriot Act now likely has another four years to mutate into whatever hellish policy it has the potential to be. That being made clear, there's nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to stop those in power from knowing who you are and what you are doing here at the Hive.

I would say that, as Hive members, we are now open season to just about any LE branch out there wanting to make an easy name for itself. Because of the nature of our research, and most importantly, because of the current political climate, we really don't have any rights here anymore (if we ever did).

In my view, we are, or will soon be, working for the US government the way victims of voyeurism work for their peeping toms.

Does this amount to an imminent bust for most of the members of the Hive? Not likely. The LE presence, I would guess, will simply monitor us and our activities closely, and in the future, will always be happy to make a claim that the Hive does not, in fact, represent a security threat because it's under total surveillance.

Ergo: Security at the total expense of privacy.

Welcome to the face of the political landscape as it applies to the Hive.

Comments anyone?

ChemisTris
(Hive Bee)
11-04-04 00:26
No 539535
User Picture       e-voting

...on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results.

In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.

So we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits

vs.

A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/

also http://www.newstarget.com/002076.html

Too late now I guess. I'm a little suspicious of the e-voting, but don't have that much to base it on (plenty of other reports of e-voting being a success).

Eitherway alot of people did vote for Bush crazy

Got democracy?http://www.dhushara.com/book/multinet/democ/wed.htm

wareami
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 02:44
No 539569
User Picture       Insults to injury...

>Congratulations to the American public, they got the president they deserve.

As much as I'd like to say Osmium is right shocked , There is something inside that prevents me from doing so!
Not because I don't like you Os, and not because I think you can be a pompous ass at times, but because of our rights to opposing viewpoints. Not unlike the two presidential candidates.

I love challenges and I see this setback as a divine intervention in a way.

As disappointed as I am with the outcome of this election, I look to potential positives that may arise.
The phrase "Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself" comes to mind.
I see this Bush Victory as just such an opportunity, whereas if Kerry won, Bush & Co. would slither off into a hole in the fabric of society somewhere.
You've all also heard the expression:
"Keep your friends close. Your enemies closer!"

So being the eternal optimist...
"We got em where we want em!" IMHO

If the shoe_throws fits...Ware It_out

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-04-04 03:44
No 539579
User Picture       Hilary

I heard and correct me if this appears to be wrong, but that the Democratic party chose John Kerry not to win because Hilary Clinton has to finish her term as a senator and that the next presidential election of 2008 she will be running for president. Has anyone else heard this?

Oh yes, the Clintons (as seen on tape) tooting horns and wearing party hats, celebrating the defeat of Kerry. This has been planned for some time. The Clintons are not idiots, they know how to use and exploit their own party in order to set the stage for 2008. I would not put it past the Clintons that they more than likely silently supported Bush or even Nader in order to make 2008 the year of Hilary. The Clintons realized that the best scenario for them was for Bush to take this "war" and further sink it into a quagmire. As long as Bush was the one to do this the country would have no other choice in '08 than a democratic nominee (Hilary Clinton being The democratic majority winner) No matter who became president in 2004 the outcome of the war would be the same IMHO. Not Kerry, not anyone could possibly take the helm at this point and emerge a "winner" regarding the "war on terror". I do think however Hilary may be up against some very strong Republican candidates in 2008 i.e. Rudolph Giuliani et al.

Well it will be interesting to see how these next four years play out.

Great work P-Diddy, Michael Moore, Bon-Jovi, Hollywood, MTV, Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, John Edwards, etc.

You have succesfully spent millions and millions if not billions of dollars, targeting the wrong market. This may just be the biggest upset in political history. The Kerry Campaign and his Supporters managed to surmount the largest uptick in new voter registrations to date AFAIK, the polls had Kerry with a slight edge everyhere, the folks at FOX, and every conservative talk radio host had already thrown in the towel and had accepted a Kerry victory. But just like always the youth of America sat on their asses, puffin the herb, passing the buck, and somehow talked themselves into believing that their vote would not make any difference anyhow, (Bush will just "steal" the election again). Great Job America, keep up the good work.

Moral of the story; If you have to count on those populations that historically have never ever moved an election in order to get yourself in office, you may just be counting on the wrong people. Instead of windsurfing, snowboarding, bird hunting, and whatever other crazy ass stunts Kerry has pulled during this campaign, he should have gone after the populations that would actually show up on election day. I know that sounds a lot easier than it is however as long as the straight and narrow, evangelical, christian, brush clearing, sunday school a goin, gun totin, beer swillin, redneckin, bible beltin, pro lifer, midwestern, southeastern, moral majority, of America are the ones that get there ass out of bed on election day, I am afraid there is nothing else anyone can do for this country.

onward,

methyl_ethyl

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 03:48
No 539580
User Picture       The Demography

I guess this country really is loaded (at least half way) with rich, white, ignorant, evangelical christians. Or a quite close proximity of that generalized stereotype.

I would have used the term redneck but I didn't want to offend anyone. tongue

can't flush this

wareami
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 03:56
No 539581
User Picture       Absolutely....

Does this amount to an imminent bust for most of the members of the Hive? Not likely. The LE presence, I would guess, will simply monitor us and our activities closely, and in the future, will always be happy to make a claim that the Hive does not, in fact, represent a security threat because it's under total surveillance.

Ergo: Security at the total expense of privacy.

Welcome to the face of the political landscape as it applies to the Hive.

Comments anyone?

psychokitty: That doorway into privacy issues for the sake of security was breached years ago.
Since the patriot act, The internet is more than a survailance tool for the voyeurs.
And it also provided them the means to eavesdrop on all methods of communication without the need to secure a warrant based on reasonable probable cause or what might be considered disputable under the protection of constitutional rights in the court of law.
I agree that it's unlikely warrants can be secured based on the info provided here or simply based on the implied and purely fictional traffic and stated accounts of SWIMS.
But that doesn't mean they aren't, or haven't been keeping tabs on what's what, who's who, or ware's what and who for an eventual time and place that xcommunications can be held under a light of prosecutorial scrutiny.

As it is today, as far as we know or have been lead to believe, there are still insurmountable legal obstacles in place that prevent a full disclosure in a court of law that could gain a conviction on what any SWIM says or implys. In First, second, or third person depiction.
But I feel these obstacles won't be in place much longer based on the way the governments are implementing an "Under One Roof" type of enforcement administration against any and all perceived threats to National/International security to the US/allies and United Nations.
The technology is in place and IMHO has already been fully tested and deployed.
Next step is to bring into legislation a set of rules under the guise of "In the peoples best interest" a sales pitch that will convince the sheeples their deceptive entrapping practices are acting in the publics best interest for it's own good.
And you are right about that keystone foundational ruleset being introduced and futhered through this current adminstrations attempts to keep the The Patriot Act/Homeland Security acts alive and well regardless of the innocent bystanders that will have their privacy violated at the hands of an over zealous bunch of slimeball douchebag LE/CIA/FBI agency.

It's absolutely astonishing that the pricks are willing to stoop lower, judicially or morally, than any criminal element it helped create in an effort to justify their wayward decisions and correct the mistakes they themselves made.

It's ironic!

If the shoe_throws fits...Ware It_out

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-04-04 04:31
No 539589
User Picture       Bush's overall vote swings 4.2 million

It's not like I didn't warn you all:

Post 534111 (abolt: "Dumb Christians", The Couch)

Don't sweat the youth vote KOS.

The sweet irony is........the lazy little fucks will wish they had gotten of their asses when Bush starts drafting them.

Life is a great leveller.

http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 05:01
No 539591
      some good news

I don't know if this is news, or if it was announced several months ago and I just wasn't paying attention. But it says on the Drudge Report that John Ashcroft plans to announce his resignation some time in the next couple of days.

psychokitty
(«»)
11-04-04 05:15
No 539593
      I suppose this finally took effect:

A Declaration Calling for the Resignation or Removal of John Ashcroft, Attorney General of the United States

Presented by the Center for American Progress and opened for signature on June 18, 2004.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for the people to call to account and seek the removal of those who govern them, a decent respect to the opinions of humanity requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to such action.

The history of law enforcement by the present Attorney General is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States, to the detriment of both our liberty and our security. He has forfeited, through his disdain for the Constitution and the Rule of Law which he has sworn to uphold, any legitimate claim to exercise power over his fellow citizens. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Having failed to seek adequate resources for counterterrorism efforts prior to the attacks of September 11, 2001, he has diminished both our security and our liberty by adopting a series of domestic measures that are unfocused and overbroad; in place of sound, sensible law enforcement, intelligence-gathering and immigration policies, he has authorized hundreds of secret arrests and indefinite detentions without charge, without counsel, and without trial, and has lifted long-standing restrictions protecting the public from unwarranted surveillance.

Despite these draconian measures, he has failed to bring to justice any significant operatives involved in the planning or execution of the attacks; indeed, he has compromised ongoing prosecutions in U.S. and foreign courts by refusing to permit court-ordered access to witnesses in U.S. custody, withholding evidence, and making extrajudicial statements regarding pending cases.

He has argued before the Supreme Court that individuals whom the president has unilaterally designated as "enemy combatants" may be detained indefinitely without charge and without legal representation; asserted that the courts have no jurisdiction to review such designations; falsely represented to the Court that the U.S. does not engage in torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment to obtain information; and attempted to influence the Court's deliberations by declassifying and releasing departmental memoranda which the individuals to whom they pertain have had no opportunity to challenge.

He has brought into international disrepute the American system of justice by counseling the president that, as Commander-in-Chief, he is not bound by laws or treaties that prohibit torture, inhuman, or degrading treatment of captives.

He has violated U.S. and international law by approving the rendition of foreign nationals from friendly nations to third countries in which there were substantial grounds for believing that they would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

He has employed the immigration laws to harass, abuse, detain and deport hundreds of individuals with no discernible link to terrorist activities; yet when his Inspector General reported that some of these people were held for unconscionable periods for no legitimate reason, his spokesperson said, "We make no apologies."

He has impeded congressional review of Justice Department activities by refusing to provide timely information to congressional oversight committees regarding his use of the USA PATRIOT Act and other counterterrorism tools; by seeking extensive new powers before Congress has had an opportunity to determine whether the existing authorities are being properly employed; and by accusing his congressional critics of giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

He has undermined judicial independence and curtailed the responsible exercise of prosecutorial discretion by ordering United States attorneys to report any federal judge who issues a lighter sentence than is called for in the Sentencing Guidelines.

He has infringed on local autonomy and states' rights by seeking the death penalty in states that do not authorize its imposition, even where the offense charged does not involve a distinct federal interest.

He has sought to chill expressive activities protected by the First Amendment by bringing frivolous actions against nonviolent protesters.

He has politicized the hiring and enforcement practices of the Department of Justice, dismissing career officers perceived as loyal to the previous Administration and filling vacancies with like-minded individuals. Personnel changes in the Civil Rights Division—coupled with a strained reading of the law—have led to decreased enforcement actions in fields as varied as housing and employment discrimination

He has compromised the constitutional right to counsel by authorizing government officials, in their sole discretion, to monitor confidential attorney-client communications.

In his zeal to circumscribe reproductive rights, he has sought to obtain patient medical records, asserting that federal law ''does not recognize a physician-patient privilege'' and that patients ''no longer possess a reasonable expectation that their histories will remain completely confidential.''

He has undermined public confidence in the justice system by perpetuating what one conservative senator has described as "a culture of concealment": withholding information from the courts, congressional committees, and the public; making novel and sweeping claims of executive privilege, not to protect the national security, but to shield officials from embarrassing revelations; and prompting an eminent federal appellate court judge to write, in Detroit Free Press v. Ashcroft, "Democracies die behind closed doors."

Like his infamous predecessor, A. Mitchell Palmer, who won a dubious place in American history by responding to a series of bombings in 1919 with the mass arrests and deportations that became known as the Palmer Raids, Attorney General Ashcroft has sought to justify his excesses by arguing that "our enemies are ruthless fanatics." We cannot defeat fanatics by becoming fanatics ourselves, giving them the victory they seek by remaking our society in their image.

An Attorney General whose character is thus marked by acts which define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the chief law enforcement officer of a free people. We, therefore, as free men and women devoted to the security and well-being of these United States, solemnly publish and declare, That Attorney General John Ashcroft should be removed from office and a successor named who will restore the honor, integrity, and good name of the Department of Justice.

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-04-04 05:26
No 539597
User Picture       That's not a good thing

Ashcroft is seen as bad publicity for the Patriot Act, which Bush wants to expand beyond 2005. If he were reappointed, Patroit Act: Reloaded would probably not pass.

I think there is a tradition of cabinet members submitting their resignation after an election, which Ashcroft is expected to follow, and Bush will determine whether he wants to let him go or reappoint him (which sources say he won't).

The tradition of submitting resignations is so the president can appoint new members if he wants without the party having to undergo the embarrasment of a cabinet member being relieved of their duties (fired). This way it will officially appear to be Ascroft's decision.

Bush is expected to stack the Cabinet with minorities.

Milk rots your brain.

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 06:10
No 539602
User Picture       17% is deplorable...

Don't sweat the youth vote KOS.

Those little cunts aren't my greatest pain.

It's the fact that now, this administration has been legitimized.
Until now, I could at least claim that we really didn't elect the man.
Not any more.
These people deserve all they get and then some.

Ya know...all week Joe Scarborough (MSNBC) has been saying that the youth vote is a sham. That they always leave every politician that courted them at the altar. I thought is was just partisan posturing but he was dead on.
   Change the voting age back to 21 - those bastards don't deserve suffrage.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-04-04 06:30
No 539605
      hummm

Statement from John Zogby on 2004 Presidential Election Results:

“We feel strongly that our pre-election polls were accurate on virtually every state. Our predictions on many of the key battleground states like Ohio and Florida were within the margin of error. I thought we captured a trend, but apparently that result didn’t materialize.

“We always saw a close race, and a close race is what we’ve got. I’ve called this the Armageddon Election for some time—a closely-divided electorate with high partisan intensity on each side."

http://www.zogby.com/

I think Diebold stole the election, how hard is it to add 200,000 votes, out of 3 million, that less than 10%. Look at whick districts used Diebold, and they are based in Ohio, btw.

dumbjanitor
(Hive Bee)
11-04-04 06:52
No 539606
      will the hive last

I seriously wonder if the hive will last another four years under this president. i was told there was a question on the ballot that asked if you thought more spending to put drug offenders in jail was needed. scary shit

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-04-04 07:08
No 539609
User Picture       1. The Hive is not under US jurisdiction. 2.

1. The Hive is not under US jurisdiction.
2. The Hive can relocate anywhere in the world if it had to.
3. There is always an initiative to increase WOD spending.
4. Any money spent on the WOD will go to police to buy Plymouth Prowlers with the D.A.R.E. logo on it.

Milk rots your brain.

jackhole
(Hive Bee)
11-04-04 07:10
No 539610
      Quit bitching...

... if this annoys you guys that much, how about do something about it rather than just whinging about how terrible it is. I think people are grossly exaggerating all the bad things that the Bush Administration has done, and are picking on Bush because he has (obviously) below-average intelligence. He doesn't do much anyway, so I don't see why everyone's getting upset and blaming this one person for everything, most of which he realistically does not have much, if any, control over.

His staff, on the other hand, is intelligent, and is probably more equipped with the experience and resources to make progress than the Kerry administration would have been.

Don't get me wrong; I think Bush himself is a dumbass. But unfortunately, so are most people, so that's why the guy was re-elected. But since we are more intelligent than these dumbasses, it shouldn't be any more difficult to continue our clandestine activities.

Jizzy Jizzy Bang Bang

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-04-04 07:15
No 539611
User Picture       He is as much to blame for the things he ...

He is as much to blame for the things he doesn't do.

Milk rots your brain.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 07:57
No 539615
      Where's Captain America and PolytheneSam ?

I'm surprised they haven't yet appeared to smear the Bush win in most of our faces.

can't flush this

jackhole
(Hive Bee)
11-04-04 08:54
No 539617
      It's because they aren't going to

It's because they aren't going to. Makes me wonder why people are suckered into propaganda so easily. Go figure.

Jizzy Jizzy Bang Bang

koretexx
(Newbee)
11-04-04 09:32
No 539619
      I have come to find out that as long as you...

I have come to find out that as long as you are not cooking crank on the street corner next to a preschool or running around at 3AM chasing shadow people the cops will pretty much leave you alone. Roll you own. Don't carry a big bong or stinky ass pipe in your pocket. Only the idiots get busted.

Clinton was the one who signed into law the death penalty for drug traffickers or did you forget that. A local guy here got caught selling over 70lbs of meth over 4 years which apparently 65lBs and over can get the death penalty. Some crazy shit.

To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide the death penalty for smuggling certain drugs into the United States. (Introduced in House)

HR 3671 IH

105th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. R. 3671
To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide the death penalty for smuggling certain drugs into the United States.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

April 1, 1998
Mr. MICA (for himself, Mr. SOLOMON, Mr. HASTERT, Mr. GOODE, and Mrs. MYRICK) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL
To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide the death penalty for smuggling certain drugs into the United States.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. DEATH PENALTY FOR SMUGGLING CERTAIN DRUGS INTO THE UNITED STATES.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 545 of title 18, United States Code, is amended in the 3rd undesignated paragraph by inserting `, except that, if the merchandise involved is a controlled substance in schedule I or II established under section 202 of the Controlled Substances Act, the penalty shall be death' before the period.

(b) APPLICABLE DEATH PENALTY PROCEDURES- Section 408(g) of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 848(g)) is amended by inserting `or for any offense under section 545 of title 18, United States Code, for which the death penalty is provided' before `only if'.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105%3AH.R.+3671:

If you think the democrats are your freinds you have got another thing coming.

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-04-04 09:52
No 539620
      eh...

you sure?

> April 1, 1998

weird date for a bill...

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

koretexx
(Newbee)
11-04-04 09:58
No 539622
      Well it is library of congress .gov site.

Well it is library of congress .gov site. I highly doubt they would joke about this.

http://thomas.loc.gov/

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-04-04 10:18
No 539625
User Picture       That is a bill, sponsored by 5 REPUBLICANS.

That is a bill, sponsored by 5 REPUBLICANS. It was never signed into law and it effectively died in the House.

Milk rots your brain.

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 10:48
No 539628
      I've only been around for a few elections -...

I've only been around for a few elections - hasn't there been one, maybe in the 70's that had everyone just as worried about the result?

koretexx
(Newbee)
11-04-04 11:05
No 539632
      http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=29&did=192

1994 Crime Bill Expansion

In 1994, as part of an omnibus crime bill, the federal death penalty was expanded to some 60 different offenses. Among the federal crimes for which people in any state or territory of the U.S. can receive a death sentence are murder of certain government officials, kidnapping resulting in death, murder for hire, fatal drive-by shootings, sexual abuse crimes resulting in death, car jacking resulting in death, and certain crimes not resulting in death, including the running of a large-scale drug enterprise.

Non-homicide crimes which may result in a federal death sentence:

Espionage (18 U.S.C. 794)

Treason. (18 U.S.C. 2381)

Trafficking in large quantities of drugs (18 U.S.C. 3591(b))

Attempting, authorizing or advising the killing of any officer, juror,or witness in cases involving a Continuing Criminal Enterprise, regardless of whether such killing actually occurs. (18 U.S.C. 3591(b)(2))

18 USC Sec. 3591
01/26/98

TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART II - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 228 - DEATH SENTENCE

HEADING

Sec. 3591. Sentence of death

STATUTE

(a) A defendant who has been found guilty of -

(1) an offense described in section 794 or section 2381; or

(2) any other offense for which a sentence of death is provided, if the defendant, as determined beyond a reasonable doubt at the hearing under section 3593 -

(A) intentionally killed the victim;

(B) intentionally inflicted serious bodily injury that resulted in the death of the victim;

(C) intentionally participated in an act, contemplating that the life of a person would be taken or intending that lethal force would be used in connection with a person, other than one of the participants in the offense, and the victim died as a direct result of the act; or

(D) intentionally and specifically engaged in an act of violence, knowing that the act created a grave risk of death to a person, other than one of the participants in the offense, such that participation in the act constituted a reckless disregard for human life and the victim died as a direct result of the act, shall be sentenced to death if, after consideration of the factors set forth in section 3592 in the course of a hearing held pursuant to section 3593, it is determined that imposition of a sentence of death is justified, except that no person may be sentenced to death who was less than 18 years of age at the time of the offense.

(b) A defendant who has been found guilty of -

(1) an offense referred to in section 408(c)(1) of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 848(c)(1)), committed as part of a continuing criminal enterprise offense under the conditions described in subsection (b) of that section which involved not less than twice the quantity of controlled substance
described in subsection (b)(2)(A) or twice the gross receipts described in subsection (b)(2)(B); or

(2) an offense referred to in section 408(c)(1) of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 848(c)(1)), committed as part of a continuing criminal enterprise offense under that section, where the defendant is a principal administrator, organizer, or leader of such an enterprise, and the defendant, in order to obstruct the investigation or prosecution of the enterprise or an offense involved in the enterprise, attempts to kill or knowingly directs, advises, authorizes, or assists another to attempt to kill any public officer, juror, witness, or members of the family or household of such a person, shall be sentenced to death if, after consideration of the factors set forth in section 3592 in the course of a hearing held pursuant to section 3593, it is determined that imposition of a sentence of death is justified, except that no person may be sentenced to death who was less than 18 years of age at the time of the offense.

SOURCE

(Added Pub. L. 103-322, title VI, Sec. 60002(a), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 1959.)

MISCELLANEOUS

SHORT TITLE

Section 60001 of title VI of Pub. L. 103-322 provided that: ''This title (enacting this chapter and sections 36, 37, 1118 to 1121, 2245, 2280, 2281, and 2332a of this title, amending sections 34, 241, 242, 245, 247, 794, 844, 924, 930, 1091, 1111, 1114, 1116, 1117, 1201, 1203, 1503, 1512, 1513, 1716, 1958, 1959, 1992, 2113, 2119, 2251, 2332, 2340A, 3005, and 3432 of this title and section 1324 of Title 8, Aliens and Nationality, renumbering former section 2245 of this title as 2246, repealing section 46503 of Title 49, Transportation, and enacting provisions set out as notes under this section and sections 36, 37, and 2280 of this title) may be cited as the 'Federal Death Penalty Act of 1994'.''

APPLICABILITY TO UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE

Section 60004 of title VI of Pub. L. 103-322 provided that: ''Chapter 228 of title 18, United States Code, as added by this title, shall not apply to prosecutions under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (10 U.S.C. 801).''

SECTION REFERRED TO IN OTHER SECTIONS

This section is referred to in sections 3592, 3593 of this title.

http://www.capdefnet.org/fdprc/contents/overview_fed_death_pen/18_usc_3591.htm

And here are the offenses.

71 Capital Eligible Statutes Assigned by Section

The capital eligible statutes in the United States Code are assigned to the following sections:

Terrorism and Violent Crime Section TVCS

Narcotic and Dangerous Drug Section NDDS

Organized Crime and Racketeering Section OCRS

Office of Special Investigations OSI

Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section CEOS

Criminal Section, Civil Rights Division CRCS

The capital eligible statutes in the United States Code are assigned to these sections as follows:

STATUTE DESCRIPTION SECTION

8 U.S.C. 1324(a) Alien Smuggling Resulting in Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 32, 34 Destruction of Aircraft Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 33, 34 Destruction of Motor Vehicle Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 36 Drive By Shooting Murder in re NDDS 848(c), 846, 841(b)(1)(A)

18 U.S.C. 37 Intern'l Airport Violence Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 241 Conspiracy Against Rights Death CRCS

18 U.S.C. 242 Deprivation of Rights Death CRCS

18 U.S.C. 245(b) Federally Protected Activity Death CRCS

18 U.S.C. 247(c) Exercise of Religious Rights Death CRCS

18 U.S.C. 351 Congress, Cabinet Etc. Murder/Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 794 Espionage TVCS

18 U.S.C. 844 Explosive Materials Death -- TVCS

(d) transport in interstate commerce

(f) destroying government property

(i) and property affecting commerce

18 U.S.C. 924(i) Gun Murder re Violent or Drug Crime TVCS

18 U.S.C. 930(c) Murder in a Federal Facility TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1091(b) Genocide Resulting in Death OSI

18 U.S.C. 1111 First Degree Murder (Premed-Felony) TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1114 Murder of Federal Officials, Etc. TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1116(a) Murder of Foreign Officials, Etc. TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1118 Murder by Federal Prisoner TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1119 Foreign Murder of United States National TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1120 Murder by Escaped Federal Prisoner TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1121(a) Murder of Person Aiding Federal Law TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1121(b) Murder of State Corrections Officer TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1201(a) Kidnapping Resulting in Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1203(a) Hostage Taking Resulting in Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1503 Murder of Court Officer or Juror TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1512(a) Murder of Federal Witness, Etc. TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1513 Retaliatory Murder of Witness, Etc. TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1716 Mailing Injurious Articles Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1751 Presidential, Staff, Etc. Murder TVCS

18 U.S.C. 1959(a) Racketeering Murder (State-Federal) OCRS

18 U.S.C. 1992 Wrecking Trains Resulting in Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2113(e) Bank Robbery Resulting in Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2119(3) Carjacking Resulting in Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2241-45 Sexual Abuse Resulting in Death CEOS

18 U.S.C. 2251(d) Child Sexual Exploitation Death CEOS

18 U.S.C. 2280 Maritime Navig'n Violence Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2281 Maritime Platform Violence Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2332(a)(1) Foreign Murder of United States National TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2332a Weapon of Mass Destruction Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2340A Foreign Torture Resulting in Death TVCS

18 U.S.C. 2381 Treason TVCS

18 U.S.C. 3591(b)(1) Non-Homicide Mega-Narcotics Offense NDDS

18 U.S.C. 3591(b)(2) CCE-Obstruction Attempted Killing NDDS

21 U.S.C. 848(e)(1)(A) CCE/Major Drug Felony Killing NDDS

21 U.S.C. 848(e)(1)(B) Drug Felony Killing of Law Officer NDDS

49 U.S.C. 46502 Aircraft Piracy Resulting in Death TVCS

I repeat,

18 U.S.C. 3591(b)(1) Non-Homicide Mega-Narcotics Offense NDDS

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00071.htm

So the guy locally rang a drug enterprise which brought 30lb of heroine, 20 lb's of Coke, and like 65lb's of meth and he was eligble for the death penalty.

wareami
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 13:53
No 539647
User Picture       BushWhacked

(ware says) Bush should be held accountable for allowing a recurrance of 2000 indecisions to still permeate this democratic process!

(Os says)Huh? You can blame him for a lot of things, but the stupidity of the American public? Hardly.

First off...in all fairness, I think the public is still extremely susceptable to falling victim to "drive-by reporting" and forming opinion based on media accounts and forcefeeding of bad or miscued information.
It's not surprising when you factor in the deep divide among a populace so diverse as the US of Assholes with equally diverse views on agenda.

The voting issue and the youth of today aren't being given a fair shake in first light based on a media, quick to conclude their reporting before all the facts are in or based on inconsistant data.
For example...it seems everyone glued to the media since electionday is of the impression that 17% (18-30yrold) 2004 versus 17% (18-30yrold) 2000 is equal turnout to the polls this election year and that the push efforts to get the youth out to vote have failed based on those stats.
Well that is just plain bullshit when you consider that this year contained unpresidented record numbers of voters across the board.
That dilutes the percentage factor by a huge margin and minimizes the efforts of those that fought hard to persuade that group to take up for themselves and be counted.
And it further feeds the notion that the youth of a nation have no clout or say in "ADULT" political affairs.

17%versus17% is the most misleading account when you consider the actual turnout numbers being millions more than in 2000 and a big slapin the face to america's youth that did stand in lines for up to 9hours to express interest.

That is my take on that issue! Misleading the sheeples to the utmost degree !

Now consider a government in power that knows it's unpopular one year into a camp-pain and gaining in unpopularity with each passing day.
Will they do everythingn thei power to discourage turnout and shape the political process to fit their needs in order to hold on to their position and gr on a nation that the majority don't want anymore based on criminal acts against a world population including it's own citizens?

I now ask you to ask yourselves?
Why is this the first time in history that voting poll lines exceeded 4hours at the polling booths?
How feesible is it that those local City&State government had asked for more funding to meet the need for more voting machines and such and were denied support in favor of discouraging the vote?
You think they aren't that deceptive and low right?

More later!

If the shoe_throws fits...Ware It_out

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-04-04 15:58
No 539671
User Picture       > in all fairness, I think the public is...

> in all fairness, I think the public is still extremely susceptable to falling
> victim to "drive-by reporting" and forming opinion based on media accounts and
> forcefeeding of bad or miscued information.

As I said, it's the stupidity of the American public. We agree here.

> 17%versus17% is the most misleading account when you consider the actual turnout
> numbers being millions more than in 2000

Well, I don't understand what your point is. 17%. Period.

> Why is this the first time in history that voting poll lines exceeded 4hours at
> the polling booths?

Because the US a third world country in regard to stuff like democracy.
I've voted in elections with 80% voter participation, and never had to wait more than 5 minutes.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

Captain_America
(Über-Führer die Ironie)
11-04-04 19:29
No 539691
      Interestingly, the gentleman himself's ...

Interestingly, the gentleman himself's official page is closed for Europeans, swim had to use the american proxy to take part of what might be the most disguisting propaganda ever documented; http://www.georgewbush.com

How that right-wing, ultra-religious propaganda can work so good, on so many, is beyond me, what has the american public turned into, has the majority gone 100% crazy?

http://www.junkmusik.com/junkvideo.mov

Saddam_Hussein
(Hive Bee)
11-04-04 22:13
No 539717
User Picture       Here comes Billy...

President of the Iraqi Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction Development Society

syschk
(Stranger)
11-04-04 22:16
No 539718
      LOL

I think that sums it up.

shadow man keeps me company

Saddam_Hussein
(Hive Bee)
11-04-04 22:17
No 539719
User Picture       Civil War

The result after the next Civil War:

President of the Iraqi Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction Development Society

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 22:42
No 539727
      That would be hilarious (and a little scary)...

That would be hilarious (and a little scary) if those figures are true. At the same time it would not suprise me if they were completely off. It is not necessarily a low IQ that causes people to prefer George Bush, but rather a unique combination of stupidity, mild paranoia, over-aggressiveness, and religious fervor.

This actually kind of makes a case for a stronger electoral system, where the popular vote does not necessarily determine who becomes president. Perhaps the vote of the people with an IQ above 100 should be weighted more than those having an IQ below 100. I have as many complaints about the IQ test as anyone, but when you place people into two very broad categories like I just outlined, it's clear that one of them would be better at choosing our country's leaders.

Scottydog
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 23:09
No 539732
User Picture       Great one Saddam!

Yes, they have extended the borders of the bible-belt. Or rather the red-necks have teamed up with the bible-thumpers. I also believe that America (or at least a majority of the ones who WILL vote) are inherently rascist.

What percentage of the Black vote did Bush get 12%?

My ID (The address that I registered) did not match the precinct in which I live, so I was forced to go across town to vote. The address that I registered was in a predominantly black area. I saw mostly white people at the polls. crazy

There has been talk on the board of low voter turn out from ages 18-30. I wonder what percentage of the ones who couldn't get off the couch were black.

A lot of holy roller baptists who didn't appreciate the fact that Kerry catered to minorities. A slight mix of religion and rascism was the end result. Red-necks and holy rollers can relate more to Dubya. Just an observation...

Refuse/Resist

psychokitty
(«»)
11-04-04 23:16
No 539734
      A possible explanation . . .

Unobtainium:

4. Any money spent on the WOD will go to police to buy Plymouth Prowlers with the D.A.R.E. logo on it.

That is fucking hilarious.

How that right-wing, ultra-religious propaganda can work so good, on so many, is beyond me, what has the american public turned into, has the majority gone 100% crazy?

No, they focus on basic things that mean everything to them. God being the main one. Another is abortion, it being a massive personal issue for most. To many christians, particularly ones that are Republicans, a grand-scale massacre of babies is how they see it. And seriously, in many ways, on many levels, I see it that way too. But you can't tell a woman what to do with her body, and that's just one reason why I stand on the Democrat/Libertarian side of the fence. But the Republicans see it differently, and for most, that's all they see: "To hell with Iraq and welfare -- just save the children. Right or wrong, the rest will take care of itself."

Extrapolate the above one explanation to all the others and you may yet have an idea why it is that so many people voted for Bush. It's kinda like a presidential candidate promising to legalize drugs. Given the chance to experience an end to prohibition, you likely would vote for him or her and find some way to live with the Iraq war and all its casualties, a bad economy, corruption up-the-ass, and a little Patriot Act to boot. Think about it.

HILLARY 2008

http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm#Drugs

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-04-04 23:31
No 539738
User Picture       That would be hilarious (and a little scary)...

That would be hilarious (and a little scary) if those figures are true.

Really?

If I was an American, and considering Americas resources, I would say that those figures are shameful.

At the same time it would not suprise me if they were completely off.

Then could you explain why 15 million extra people decided to get of their collective asses this time and vote for a president that has given them record debt, record post depression unemployment and the slaughter of over 1,000 U.S. boys (not to mention 100,000 sand niggers), based on a lie, at the rate of roughly 2 to 1?

It is not necessarily a low IQ that causes people to prefer George Bush, but rather a unique combination of stupidity, mild paranoia, over-aggressiveness, and religious fervor.

So........are you saying that a prediliction for "a unique combination of stupidity, mild paranoia, over-aggressiveness, and religious fervor" is just as prevelant in people with a high I.Q.?

This actually kind of makes a case for a stronger electoral system, where the popular vote does not necessarily determine who becomes president.

I think it makes the case for a stronger education system, where the popular vote comes from a better informed populace.

Perhaps the vote of the people with an IQ above 100 should be weighted more than those having an IQ below 100.

They get away with enough by keeping the population stupid and dulled as it is. This would only make things worse.

I have as many complaints about the IQ test as anyone, but when you place people into two very broad categories like I just outlined, it's clear that one of them would be better at choosing our country's leaders.

The "inteligentsia" already have the power, Bush is just the means to legitamise it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that those holding the levers of power are as stupid as two thirds of the populace.

AFAIC.........that chart explains everything.

HEADLINE IN ITALY: HOW COULD 59 MILLION PEOPLE, BE SO DUMB?

My sentiments exactly.

http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-04-04 23:38
No 539739
User Picture       Christians..........GET OUT OF MY BEDROOM!!!!

No, they focus on basic things that mean everything to them. God being the main one. Another is abortion, it being a massive personal issue for most. To many christians, particularly ones that are Republicans, a grand-scale massacre of babies is how they see it.

Wasn't one of the founding principals of the United States, the seperation of powers?

http://www.terrorready.net/index.asp

psychokitty
(«»)
11-04-04 23:40
No 539740
      Re: Wasn't one of the founding principals of...

Wasn't one of the founding principals of the United States, the seperation of powers?

I'm only trying to explain the situation, not justify it.

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-04-04 23:51
No 539741
User Picture       HILLARY 2008

Psychokitty wrote...HILLARY 2008

If Hillary does run and win what does that then make Bill?

First Man?

If that scenario plays out Bill Clinton would literally be back in the whitehouse. There would really not bee much to stop him from having his nose deep in what was going on there.

Although his nose is probably not the correct body part to mention.

can't flush this

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-04-04 23:57
No 539743
User Picture       Fuck Hillary!

REVOLUTION 2008, ENLIST NOW!

U.S.A. - ABORTION = BAD, MURDERING INNOCENT ARABS = GOOD

psychokitty
(«»)
11-05-04 00:02
No 539744
      Seriously . . .

What's wrong with Hillary Clinton? Are you opposed to the idea of a female president?

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-05-04 00:36
No 539753
User Picture       She would have to sit at the same desk ...

She would have to sit at the same desk everyday that her husband got a blowjob under.

That's gotta make the bedroom a little tense.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-05-04 00:40
No 539755
User Picture       No

What's wrong with Hillary Clinton? Are you opposed to the idea of a female president?

No.......I am opposed to yet another rich white capitalist being president.

U.S.A. - ABORTION = BAD, MURDERING INNOCENT ARABS = GOOD

syschk
(Stranger)
11-05-04 00:42
No 539756
      AGAIN?

If hillary won in 2008 wounldnt that be her 3rd term in office? ...hmm I guess that wouldn't be official until she got the title.

shadow man keeps me company

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-05-04 03:34
No 539779
User Picture       Black Wednesday

I am often referred to as being a strong individual, especially for a woman. People are always asking me how I’ve kept from falling apart through some very rough times.   They think I should be crying on their shoulders, finding a guy to comfort me and so on.   That’s not my style.   As a general rule, if you see me crying, you better watch out cause I’m fuckin’ mad! mad Tears are for cry babies and I sure as hell don’t want to be that. It shows weakness and vulnerability, two things that I refuse to ever let others see in me. Doesn’t mean that I have never been guilty of either one of these, believe me, I have indulged myself plenty of times. I just try to do it in private where no one sees me, that’s all. I’ve shut my bedroom door many a night and cried myself to sleep.   The only reason I’m coming clean with ya’ll now is so you will have a better understanding where I’m coming from with the remainder of this post.

Tuesday morning I was up and dressed before my alarm ever even went off. It was the day I had been waiting for. The day that Americans would finally be able to speak out and let Dumbya and his friends know that we do not want them running our country anymore. It was going to be the first step in a long hard battle but I had hope, something that I hadn’t had for a long time. There was light at the end of that tunnel and I could see it getting brighter. Unfortunally, I had no idea that it was connected to the front of the oncoming train that was fixin’ to hit me.

People, I have been pretty much dumbfounded and damn near speechless for the last couple of days. I can’t bring myself to talk about it or hear about it without tears running down my cheeks. I’m beyond being mad, I’m fuckin’ hurt and I’m fuckin’ scared! Hell, I’m terrified of this administration having 4 more years to do as they please. I can’t imagine how much worse it will be now that they don’t even have another election to worry about. You can be assured that they will be planning their retirement and will not care who they have to fuck over to get there either. Remember, these guys have “morals” they live by. mad

I had planned on going into more discussion with this post but I‘ll quit right here. I won’t continue any further with this “whining” and the self-pity bullshit. On the other hand, do me a favor though, will ya? Don’t start telling me that I need to “get over it” and “move on“. That “I need to accept it” and “it’s really not that bad“. I’m just not in the mood for it right now and I'm shutting my bedroom door. frown

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-05-04 03:40
No 539780
User Picture       It IS really that bad

Keep your chin up, sister Jade.

"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired." - Robert Strauss

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-05-04 04:50
No 539801
      Well, it doesn't hurt to be optimistic.

Well, it doesn't hurt to be optimistic. So far, in the first 48 hours since the Bush victory, it hasn't gotten any worse that it was during the first administration. Who knows how long that will last? Maybe a few more days, maybe a year. Maybe the entire term. I know, the chances seem slim, but it is possible. Try to remember that.

It's also possible that when the bad things do start happening, they will bad, but not world ending. Bad enough to scare bush supporters into never voting this way again. In thirty years or so, the issue of terrorism or pre-emptive war will come up during a campaign, and everyone will say, "be careful, we don't want another george w. bush". Much like Neville Chamberlain is used today to warn against appeasement, Bush will be used to warn against the opposite. And our lives will be better in the long run.

Saddam_Hussein
(Hive Bee)
11-05-04 07:21
No 539817
User Picture       Da Oz is right

I agree with Osmium's statement. It's the president they deserve. Whether the 'mericans voted for Kerry or Bush doesn't matter for the majority of non-Us people, because they will be treated like shit anyway. It's a good thing they elect a president that will treat them as shit as well.

Things we'll see in the next 4 year: the draft, invasion of Iran (at least 25% "niggers", because they are "nigger" and vote Democrat), "cleaning" Jordan from religious fanatics, export more jobs to China, (if Fidel would drop dead in the next 4 year,) invade Cuba and buy up the whole island for shiny pennies and turn it into heavily poluting industry and nice real estate, school reform: 12 hours religion and 24 hours patriotism per week, increase military spending to buy the newest bombs, dump the old bombs on some sandniggers (hypo^(C)), and last but not least, introduction of some new national holidays (National Book Burning Festival, etc).

God bless 'merica indeed.

President of the Iraqi Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction Development Society

psychokitty
(«»)
11-05-04 07:45
No 539819
      Civil War?

You can find comfort in the fact that you're not alone, soccer mamma. A lot of people that I talk to think it a reality that civil war could be on the brink. Not exactly headed towards hand-to-hand conflict but certainly pretty combative. People can only take so much, and fifty percent of America is a percentage that you don't want to keep repressed for too long.

Keep in mind that Bush being in office means that he'll be around long enough for the skeletons in his closet to burst out (because of overflow). People are stupid but not that stupid. They'll see President Bush for what he is soon enough. Just you wait and see. He can't have everything. That's just not the way Karma works. Sooner than later, things catch up to you.

In my view, America is at present giving President Bush a break. Seriously. For example, many people voted Republican in spite of Bush's performance in the war in Iraq, not because of it. My guess is the greedy bastards backing him don't know when to quit and America will soon be fed up, bible-thumping or not. This is good news as every Bush supporter hopefully will feel really stupid when this is over, and in the future, won't be so trusting of those in power . . . well, maybe . . . NAH.

EDIT: I'm not advocating civil war, BTW.

buz
(Hive Bee)
11-05-04 14:33
No 539857
      blowjob under.

unob's post is confusing.
i can't tell whom is under the table nor where the willy is.

anyway,
the u.s. is a one party system now.
this should make things less confusing for revolutionaries.
we needn't ever bee side-tracked by the liberal faction of facism again.

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-05-04 15:50
No 539864
      wtf

Things we'll see in the next 4 year: the draft, invasion of Iran (at least 25% "niggers", because they are "nigger" and vote Democrat), "cleaning"

Please explain your comment S.H.

ChemisTris
(Hive Bee)
11-05-04 16:28
No 539869
User Picture       "Franklin County totals are inaccurate"

In the Gahanna 1-B precinct, Bush is credited with 4285 votes out of 638 votes cast. This pads his numbers here by almost 4000. There are also 87 write-in votes, which is way out of line with the typical precinct, and the absentee ballots appear to have been counted twice, or the wrong totals given for half of them (reported at the very end of the document).

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/4/132449/017

Interesting, but not overhelmingly so.

Got democracy?http://www.dhushara.com/book/multinet/democ/wed.htm

psychokitty
(«»)
11-05-04 20:51
No 539885
      Michael Moore

Here's a copy of Michael Moore's most recent letter to his fans:

11/5/04

Dear Friends,

Ok, it sucks. Really sucks. But before you go and cash it all in, let's, in
the words of Monty Python, 'always look on the bright side of life!' There
IS some good news from Tuesday's election.

Here are 17 reasons not to slit your wrists:

1. It is against the law for George W. Bush to run for president again.

2. Bush's victory was the NARROWEST win for a sitting president since
Woodrow Wilson in 1916.

3. The only age group in which the majority voted for Kerry was young adults
(Kerry: 54%, Bush: 44%), proving once again that your parents are always
wrong and you should never listen to them.

4. In spite of Bush's win, the majority of Americans still think the
country is headed in the wrong direction (56%), think the war wasn't worth fighting (51%), and don't approve of the job George W. Bush is doing (52%). (Note to foreigners: Don't try to figure this one out. It's an American thing, like Pop Tarts.)

5. The Republicans will not have a filibuster-proof 60-seat majority in the
Senate. If the Democrats do their job, Bush won't be able to pack the
Supreme Court with right-wing ideologues. Did I say "if the Democrats do
their job?" Um, maybe better to scratch this one.

6. Michigan voted for Kerry! So did the entire Northeast, the birthplace of
our democracy. So did 6 of the 8 Great Lakes States. And the whole West
Coast! Plus Hawaii. Ok, that's a start. We've got most of the fresh water,
all of Broadway, and Mt. St. Helens. We can dehydrate them or bury them in
lava. And no more show tunes!

7. Once again we are reminded that the buckeye is a nut, and not just any
old nut -- a poisonous nut. A great nation was felled by a poisonous nut.
May Ohio State pay dearly this Saturday when it faces Michigan.

8. 88% of Bush's support came from white voters. In 50 years, America will
no longer have a white majority. Hey, 50 years isn't such a long time! If
you're ten years old and reading this, your golden years will be truly
golden and you will be well cared for in your old age.

9. Gays, thanks to the ballot measures passed on Tuesday, cannot get married
in 11 new states. Thank God. Just think of all those wedding gifts we won't
have to buy now.

10. Five more African Americans were elected as members of Congress,
including the return of Cynthia McKinney of Georgia. It's always good to
have more blacks in there fighting for us and doing the job our candidates
can't.

11. The CEO of Coors was defeated for Senate in Colorado. Drink up!

12. Admit it: We like the Bush twins and we don't want them to go away.

13. At the state legislative level, Democrats picked up a net of at least 3
chambers in Tuesday's elections. Of the 98 partisan-controlled state
legislative chambers (house/assembly and senate), Democrats went into the
2004 elections in control of 44 chambers, Republicans controlled 53
chambers, and 1 chamber was tied. After Tuesday, Democrats now control 47
chambers, Republicans control 49 chambers, 1 chamber is tied and 1 chamber
(Montana House) is still undecided.

14. Bush is now a lame duck president. He will have no greater moment than
the one he's having this week. It's all downhill for him from here on out --
and, more significantly, he's just not going to want to do all the hard work
that will be expected of him. It'll be like everyone's last month in 12th
grade -- you've already made it, so it's party time! Perhaps he'll treat the
next four years like a permanent Friday, spending even more time at the
ranch or in Kennebunkport. And why shouldn't he? He's already proved his
point, avenged his father and kicked our ass.

15. Should Bush decide to show up to work and take this country down a very
dark road, it is also just as likely that either of the following two
scenarios will happen: a) Now that he doesn't ever need to pander to the
Christian conservatives again to get elected, someone may whisper in his ear
that he should spend these last four years building "a legacy" so that
history will render a kinder verdict on him and thus he will not push for
too aggressive a right-wing agenda; or b) He will become so cocky and
arrogant -- and thus, reckless -- that he will commit a blunder of such
major proportions that even his own party will have to remove him from
office.

16. There are nearly 300 million Americans -- 200 million of them of voting
age. We only lost by three and a half million! That's not a landslide -- it
means we're almost there. Imagine losing by 20 million. If you had 58 yards
to go before you reached the goal line and then you barreled down 55 of
those yards, would you stop on the three yard line, pick up the ball and go
home crying -- especially when you get to start the next down on the three
yard line? Of course not! Buck up! Have hope! More sports analogies are
coming!!!

17. Finally and most importantly, over 55 million Americans voted for the
candidate dubbed "The #1 Liberal in the Senate." That's more than the total
number of voters who voted for either Reagan, Bush I, Clinton or Gore.
Again, more people voted for Kerry than Reagan. If the media are looking for
a trend it should be this -- that so many Americans were, for the first time
since Kennedy, willing to vote for an out-and-out liberal. The country has
always been filled with evangelicals -- that is not news. What IS news is
that so many people have shifted toward a Massachusetts liberal. In fact,
that's BIG news. Which means, don't expect the mainstream media, the ones
who brought you the Iraq War, to ever report the real truth about November
2, 2004. In fact, it's better that they don't. We'll need the element of
surprise in 2008.

Feeling better? I hope so. As my friend Mort wrote me yesterday, "My
Romanian grandfather used to say to me, 'Remember, Morton, this is such a
wonderful country -- it doesn't even need a president!'"

But it needs us. Rest up, I'll write you again tomorrow.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.michaelmoore.com

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-05-04 21:50
No 539902
User Picture       Hilary will have competition

Edwards Positions Himself for 2008

By LIZ SIDOTI, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Democrat John Edwards (news - web sites) lost the election for the vice presidency this week and will lose his Senate seat in January. But he's hardly going away. He's positioned himself for a full-out presidential run in 2008, a campaign that in a way he's already begun.

For now, though, politics is on hold. His wife, Elizabeth, was diagnosed with breast cancer this week just after Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) and running mate Edwards conceded the race to President Bush (news - web sites).

"Together, our family will beat this," Edwards said on Thursday in a statement that made clear her treatment would be the focus of his immediate future.

Longer range, the North Carolina senator with the good looks, Southern charm, rags-to-riches biography and "tomorrow can be better than today" pitch is in the top rank of candidates expected to compete for the White House in four years.

That's despite his liabilities: He's leaving the Senate after a single term; he has little foreign policy experience; he couldn't deliver his own state or any other in the South for Kerry, despite boasting that "I will beat George Bush (news - web sites) in my backyard." But he now has the experience and public exposure of a national campaign.

While Edwards has not announced his intentions, he never has been shy about his presidential aspirations. He introduced Kerry on Wednesday with a speech that could be considered the first of the 2008 contest.

"This campaign may end today, but the battle for you and the hardworking Americans who built this country rages on," Edwards said. "At the end of our heartache today resides an eternal hope for the country we're going to fight for and the country we're going to build together."

Democrats say they expect Edwards to be extremely active in the party, speaking at events, raising money and endearing himself to the rank and file. Campaigning for the nomination years early, in effect.

Another potential 2008 Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (news - web sites) of New York, has a large following and plenty of name recognition, too. And, unlike Edwards, the former first lady also has a job that will keep her in the spotlight.

Edwards will be unemployed in January when he leaves the Senate after just six years and a swift rise in politics. He chose not to run for re-election at the same time he was running for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination as a long-shot candidate.

Barely a blip in primary polls, Edwards fought to counter a perception that he was little more than a pretty face and a gifted speaker. Then he wound up in second place in Iowa.

Eventually, he lost to Kerry but he won the respect of party officials — and the Massachusetts senator — with his ability to raise money and connect with voters with a message of optimism about achieving the American dream.

After the primary season, Edwards campaigned for the vice presidential nomination by traveling the country talking up Kerry and raising money. Kerry asked his Senate colleague to join the ticket, and he campaigned hard to the end.

His advisers and friends say he hasn't spoken to them about his next political move — or his plans in the meantime other than to help his wife heal. They say he was focused on helping Kerry win the White House and didn't dwell on the "what if" during the campaign.

For now, Edwards will see out his Senate term and commute between homes in Washington and Raleigh, N.C. No one expects him to return to the courtroom and his previous profession as a trial lawyer.

Those who know him believe Edwards will become involved with a couple of "worthy causes."

"He'll find some things to make his own and throw himself into to make America a better place," former North Carolina Gov. Jim Hunt said. "He's positioned beautifully for the future. He will have the time and all the opportunity. He will have the forum and he can pick his issues."

And, he can afford to focus entirely on 2008.

A multimillionaire who amassed a fortune as a trial lawyer, Edwards doesn't need a job to pay the bills.

Some Democrats say they believe the party will embrace Southerner Edwards as it did Bill Clinton (news - web sites) and Jimmy Carter, considering Tuesday's losses in the White House and in Congress. The only Democrats in recent years to be president were small-town Southerners.

Milk rots your brain.

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-06-04 12:26
No 540024
User Picture       Republicunts are dimwits

http://attenuation.net/files/iq.htm

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

ChemisTris
(Hive Bee)
11-06-04 13:25
No 540026
User Picture       Re: http://attenuation.net/files/iq.htm Thats...

http://attenuation.net/files/iq.htm

Thats the same data that had appeared in Post 539717 (Saddam_Hussein: "Here comes Billy...", The Couch), and I've read elsewhere that those figures are erroneous - although I'd like to believe them.

Got democracy?http://www.dhushara.com/book/multinet/democ/wed.htm

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-07-04 01:53
No 540098
      Well, no....just the the references are fake.

Well, no....just the the references are fake. The data may be accurate. There are both income and level-of-education charts (from verifiable census data) that look very much the same as that IQ one, with regards to which states voted for which candidate. In general, the high income, well educated states voted Kerry. Since education and income correlate strongly with IQ, it's a safe guess that the highest average IQ states voted for Kerry as well.

But since there are no state by state IQ tests done on a regular basis, it would be difficult to verify this guess.

psyloxy
(Hive Addict)
11-07-04 07:46
No 540142
User Picture       college grads

This seems to be based on actual facts (? hope so), the more college grads the more kerry votes... I mean, noone ever really seemed to doubt a correlation between voting behavior and some sort of IQ - the redneck farmer states voted Bush, the metropolitan areas voted Kerry... would be interesting to see what % of the gross national product is produced by the democratic and the republican parts of the U.S. ... could be democrat workers paying most of Bushs war budget... uh, well, just some thoughts at the beginning of a new day after a looong night...

"i was bored last night, so curiosity got the best of me and i decided to see if there was a correlation between %bush voters and %college grads by state (nerd!). so i found out each state's %Bachelor's degrees from the census and ran it--indeed there was a negative linear relationship between %bush voters and %college grads (R = -0.71)-- which means, the less % of college grads, the more % bush voters. DC had the highest % of college grads (42.5%) and the lowest % of bush voters (9%); West Virginia had the lowest % grads (16.1%) and a relatively high % (56%) bush voters...... Interestingly the last 14 ranking states in grads (<22%) were all bush winners (many 55-60+% voted for bush), and 11 of the top 14 ranking states in grads (>30%) were kerry winners."

--psyloxy--
I'm a war president !

Methlaab
(Newbee)
11-07-04 11:34
No 540175
      that's life...

Machine error gives Bush 3,893 extra votes in Ohio
By John McCarthy, Associated Press
COLUMBUS, Ohio — An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said.

Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct. Bush's total should have been recorded as 365.

Bush won the state by more than 136,000 votes, according to unofficial results, and Kerry conceded the election on Wednesday after saying that 155,000 provisional ballots yet to be counted in Ohio would not change the result.

Deducting the erroneous Bush votes from his total could not change the election's outcome, and there were no signs of other errors in Ohio's electronic machines, said Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell.

Franklin is the only Ohio county to use Danaher Controls's ELECTronic 1242, an older-style touchscreen voting system. Danaher did not immediately return a message for comment.

Sean Greene, research director with the nonpartisan Election Reform Information Project, said that while the glitch appeared minor "that could change if more of these stories start coming out."

In one North Carolina county, more than 4,500 votes were lost in this election because officials mistakenly believed a computer that stored ballots electronically could hold more data than it did.

And in San Francisco, a malfunction with custom voting software could delay efforts to declare the winners of four races for county supervisor.

Multiple copies of each ballot are recorded: two on the machine and three to a removable cartridge, said Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections. When voting ends, each cartridge is taken to one of five zones in the county, where the results are loaded into a laptop. Those results are transferred by secure data lines to the county.

Kimball Brace, president of the consulting firm Election Data Services, said it's possible the fault lies with the software that tallies the votes from individual cartridges rather than the machines or the cartridges themselves.

Either way, he said, such tallying software ought to have a way to ensure that the totals don't exceed the number of voters.

Damschroder said the malfunction occurred when one machine's cartridge was plugged into a laptop computer and generated faulty numbers in several races. He could not explain how the malfunction occurred, but he would not rule out a problem with the laptop's software. An investigation was continuing, he said.

The county has about 3,000 of the machines, which first were used in the 1992 election and will be replaced by 2006 to comply with federal law. Damschroder has ruled out a problem with software at the central vote collection office, as well as tampering.

"We tested if there was some possibility of human intervention and it was not possible," Damschroder said.

Damschroder said people who had seen poll results on the election board's Web site called to point out the discrepancy. The error would have been discovered when the official count for the election is performed later this month, he said.

The reader also recorded zero votes in a county commissioner race on the machine.

Other electronic machines used in Ohio do not use the type of computer cartridge involved in the error, state officials say.

But in Perry County, a punch-card system reported about 75 more votes than there are voters in one precinct. Workers tried to cancel the count when the tabulator broke down midway through, but the machine instead double-counted an unknown number in the first batch. The mistake will be corrected, officials say.

Meanwhile, in San Francisco, a glitch occurred with software designed by Election Systems & Software Inc. for the city's new "ranked-choice voting," in which voters list their top three choices for municipal offices. If no candidate gets a majority of first-place votes outright, voters' second and third-place preferences are then distributed among candidates who weren't eliminated in the first round. (Related story: 'Ranked-choice voting' experiment hits tech snag)

When the San Francisco Department of Elections tried a test run Wednesday, some of the votes didn't get counted. The problem was attributed to a programming glitch that limited how much data could be accepted, a threshold that did not account for high voter turnout.

fuck this system

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-07-04 13:46
No 540180
User Picture       How smart do you have to be?

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-07-04 14:15
No 540187
      facts?

I have come to find out that as long as you are not cooking crank on the street corner next to a preschool or running around at 3AM chasing shadow people the cops will pretty much leave you alone. Roll you own. Don't carry a big bong or stinky ass pipe in your pocket. Only the idiots get busted.

What world do you live in? Only a fuckin' idiot would say that only idiots get busted. Before you shoot your mouth off why not get the facts to back it up? I'd be very interested in seeing them.

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

Osmium
11-07-04 14:30
      Tough fucking shit. You got what you deserve.
(Rated as: insignificant)

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-07-04 14:42
No 540195
User Picture       THanks coworker unobtainium.

THanks coworker unobtainium. Sorry that the truth hurts so much.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-07-04 14:45
No 540196
User Picture       why?

Os, why do all of us deserve it? What is it that you feel everyone of us has done? Since you are so much wiser than the rest of us, then please tell us what it is you think we should do. I know that I, for one, did a hell of a lot more than bitch on this board about it and I'm sure many others did, as well. I think it is pretty obvious why we are posting anonymously here and it has nothing to do with this fuckin' election. I'm not taking up for the ignorant son of bitches that voted for Bush but I'll be damn if I'm going to be put down because they did so. mad

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-07-04 15:35
No 540206
User Picture       I kicked a gal’s ass, does that count?

Friday at work, this stupid bitch was carrying on about how Bush won and kept laughing and joking about it. After awhile I, politely, told her that I had heard enough and she needed to shut up about it. I told her how her vehicle with Bush wrote all over the windows showed how stupid she was and we didn’t need to hear any more to confirm it. When she didn’t say anything more, I thought the bitch got my message and knew I was getting pissed. I underestimated her level of intelligence though cause when I came out to leave I found “BUSH WON!” wrote on the back glass of my vehicle. That done it! mad I found her hiding behind some other vehicles laughing like she had really done something funny with the marking tool still in her hand. I guess I had a little more anger built up inside of me than I had realized cause before I knew it, I had her down and was proceeding to make her eat it when some co-workers pulled me off.   Even though I am a department head and in some serious trouble with corporate, it felt good. DAMN GOOD!

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

embezzler
(Hive Addict)
11-07-04 15:59
No 540210
User Picture       time

time to lay off the meth jade wink

chemically enhanced.

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-07-04 16:31
No 540211
      Excuse My Ignorance

Please excuse my ignorance, but I am under the impression that after a candidate concedes, regardless of how many things they find wrong with the election, the votes, the voters, or lack there of, this decision is irreversible. Is this the correct impression that I have?

And Damn Jade, bee careful, I would hate to hear that you lost your job over this matter. Even if you are a key employee, most corporations have a zero tolerance when comes to fighting. I hope those you work for have the same political views as you, in that case you may get away scot free... smile

m_e

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
11-07-04 16:57
No 540214
      I believe Hillary Clinton would make a pretty...

I believe Hillary Clinton would make a pretty good and tough president. Almost too good for my decadent european taste. Hmmm....

Jade, cool down, neither republicans, Bush nor Osmium are it worth to waste precious strong emotions on.

Love
/ORG

I cant spell, I terrible look, the only thing about me is the stuff that I cook......

ChemisTris
(Hive Bee)
11-07-04 18:08
No 540222
User Picture       conceding

methyl_ethyl I recalled seeing this relevant piece at dailykos.com:

Also, Kerry "conceding" doesn't enter into it. "Conceding" is a political concept, not a legal one. If Ohio looked like it had some possibility of turning blue, you can bet that Kerry would "un-concede" pretty damn quickly.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/4/224812/643

Perhaps not the best source, but hopefully correct.

Got democracy?http://www.dhushara.com/book/multinet/democ/wed.htm

abominator
(Hive Bee)
11-07-04 18:24
No 540223
User Picture       Define complacent fucks Os(who are they?)

Jade, I don't think that Os was calling you or any American that actually tried to get Dubya ousted, complacent fucks. I do understand if he is speaking of Bush's supporters who are indeed complacent fucks. I am sure Os has the utmost love for the American population and wishes them only the best, as do we for you Osmium. tongue I do believe that the US had one of the best voting turnouts in many years, just seems that from the poll results, too many people in our country are indeed "sheeple".

Nice to see that a mod can get moderated. Come on Os, it's not your country anyway, so why get so hot under the collar?

Another little sip/ a bit deeper in debt
₆9

Saddam_Hussein
(Hive Bee)
11-07-04 18:42
No 540225
User Picture       is that a serious question?

Come on Os, it's not your country anyway, so why get so hot under the collar?

Because that country terrorizes non-US civilians ten times as hard as it does for US citizens.

President of the Iraqi Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction Development Society

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-07-04 18:43
No 540226
User Picture       like you

Let me guess... bitch and moan, right? Right. In private of course, and anonymously on the internet

As opposed to all of your right action and mobilization?

As for what we do - I don't recall ever being required to report my actions to you but yet because we don't discuss what actions we are taking about this problem - you just assume the worst.
All you get here is just what we choose to give you. Nobody thinks to notify Os to see if we are doing enough, or doing it right. Maybe that's because you speak with just as much bias, predjudice and narrow-minded intolerance that you accuse us of.

If you think anyone of us is inclined to armed revolt, you are sadly mistaken. If you want a revolution so fucking bad over here, why don't you fly your ass over and start one?
Otherwise we'll just keep on bitching and complaining with you since it seems that it's all you're good for around here when it comes to the american problem.

Tough fucking shit for the world as I see it but worse for us than for you but not as bad as it is for the iraqis.
There is a limit to what any sane person is willing to do. Violence is not on the horizon and things will have to get a whole helluva lot worse before it comes to that point. You never quite come out and say it, but it seems that's where you want this country to go to. Besides there are more than enough people out there who want a piece of us as it is. Why should we bring that on ourselves?

What are you doing about it?
More bitching on the internet too?

Complacent fucks, you don't deserve any other president.

It's that ability to lump us all together that earns you so many admirers here (I know, I know - you don't give a shit). I am not a complacent fuck and sure as fuck don't deserve that cunt in office and you can take that self-righteous anger and stick it, who are you to lecture us?

In the end, this all just preaching to the choir. Nobody likes that man (GWB) and we are all just venting our anger and frustration. Being a cunt to all the americans here is stupid because nearly all of us are against him (besides Sam and Buster) and his policies. Any americans bitching are just doing the same - perhaps we should drop all political discussions here.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

PolytheneSam
11-07-04 18:53
      http://tv.yahoo.com/news/wwn/20030410/104998680...
(Rated as: I don't remember anyone asked for your opinion)

PolytheneSam
(Master Searcher)
11-07-04 18:57
No 540229
User Picture       Re: In the end, this all just preaching to the

In the end, this all just preaching to the choir. Nobody likes that man (GWB) and we are all just venting our anger and frustration. Being a cunt to all the americans here is stupid because nearly all of us are against him (besides Sam and Buster) and his policies. Any americans bitching are just doing the same - perhaps we should drop all political discussions here.

You're absolutely right. Political discussions have ruined the hive.

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-07-04 20:46
No 540237
User Picture       I've been warned.

And Damn Jade, bee careful, I would hate to hear that you lost your job over this matter. Even if you are a key employee, most corporations have a zero tolerance when comes to fighting. I hope those you work for have the same political views as you, in that case you may get away scot free...

Since my record was clean, I got a very stern WARNING and will get the cold shoulder treatment for awhile. She is in someone else's department and I didn't know it, but she has a history of causing trouble. Don't know if she'll be back or not but I hope she got the message and stays out of my face. I think she did. wink

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

wareami
(Hive Addict)
11-07-04 22:21
No 540242
User Picture       The eternal optimist strikes again....

Regardless of the stats, Over 60% of all americans were for kicking bushes ass out of office!
All those that wanted to vote were denied the right for many possible reasons and I'm still almost 100% possitive that when all the facts come in, Unobtainium will have been correct in that...DIEBOLD won the election for bushy! Not The People!
I'd put an estimate on 25% of the entire population are ignorant little richfucks with their heads UP their asses.
Not 51%!
They thrive on corruption as the only means to justify their existance on this planet! They would vote for the BushPigs!

WE DID GET WHAT WE DESERVED!(Sorry Jade...look at the bright side before you whip me to a pulp! tongue You wouldn't hit a sober bee would ya? wink )
We deserve to keep that fucker where he is until he humilates himself and possibly be brought to a point where he'll step out of line one more time and run into someone like jade that will deck that fucker good!
You mark my words...!
Bush and Co. are incapable of stopping what they've already set in motion and most of those past deeds that have yet to become public WILL be the hangman's noose for this elitist group of fuck-ups!
My only fear is that all the other ones pulling the puppet strings will crawlback into the woodwork or be releived of their duties before the goodpeople are done spanking them for all their worth and finding them guilty of onething or another!
I see this as a victory for the world as they at least have a chance to see justice served The REAL American Way!

Okay....as long as Bush is in power The US stands A greater chance of being attacked within it's borders! Let it happen under that assholes watch again and you'll see an uprising like this countries never seen before!
He's not a moving target where he is now whereas he would be still moving if Kerry won. He's a sitting duck! Not a popular president or leader.
Sometimes things gotta get way worse before they get better!
I live in the real world and that is just life regardless of where your from or who your leader is!

Bushes position isn't as cushy as he'd like to think it is or fought hard for it to be.
There is only one way outta the frying pan and that's into the fire!
I hope the whole world joins us in jubilee while watching the fireworks celebration at being liberated from this coward-ass tyrant and his henchmen!

If the shoe_throws fits...Ware It_out

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-07-04 22:22
No 540243
User Picture       Someone post that Saddam film.

Someone post that Saddam film.

Milk rots your brain.

Saddam_Hussein
(Hive Bee)
11-07-04 22:36
No 540248
      Saddam film

Why? You long for me that much?

President of the Iraqi Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction Development Society

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-07-04 23:02
No 540253
User Picture       Because I don't believe it.

If there was a video of Saddam taking it in the ass, I would have seen it by now.

Milk rots your brain.

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-07-04 23:04
No 540257
User Picture       > Os, why do all of us deserve it?

> Os, why do all of us deserve it?

Not all of you, only at least 250 millions.

> What is it that you feel everyone of us has done?

It's not what you have done, it's what you are NOT doing.

> Since you are so much wiser than the rest of us,

I never claimed that, but now that you mention it...

> then please tell us what it is you think we should do.

I assumed it said on the sign on the front entrance that only adults were allowed in here. They should be able to figure it out on their own.

> I kicked a gal’s ass, does that count?

No it doesn't.

> Jade, cool down, neither republicans, Bush nor Osmium are it worth to waste
> precious strong emotions on.

Certainly not. But maybe the human life to be lost in the next few weeks, months and years is. Unless you're a Complacent Fuck (<--- capitalized in true Hater style), in that case I guess it won't bother you.

> I don't think that Os was calling you or any American that actually tried to
> get Dubya ousted, complacent fucks.

Yes I did. At least some of them.

> I do understand if he is speaking of Bush's supporters who are indeed
> complacent fucks.

Thanks for mentioning the bloody obvious.

> I am sure Os has the utmost love for the American population and wishes them
> only the best, as do we for you Osmium.

I'm not seeing much happening which deserves my admiration lately.

Now to you, my special friend kos:

> As opposed to all of your right action and mobilization?
> As for what we do - I don't recall ever being required to report my actions
> to you but yet because we don't discuss what actions we are taking about this
> problem - you just assume the worst.

I'm not assuming. And how come you know my real world identity, and what I'm doing to fight the madness?

> If you think anyone of us is inclined to armed revolt, you are sadly mistaken.

I don't recall asking for an armed revolution, Mister Complacent Fuck. I'd be satisfied with much less than that.

> If you want a revolution so fucking bad over here, why don't you fly your ass
> over and start one?

First of all I am against violence if it can be avoided, second I didn't ask for revolution in the first place, and third I sure as hell won't enter a country which already treated me like they owed me big time for even letting me in (pre 9-11) when the purpose of my visit was tourism and my pockets were full with several times more cold hard cash than the average yankee spends on health insurance or his nation's armed forces each year. In case you watched the news lately the welcome sub-humans without the right passport get these days is slightly on the unfriendly side, and I can tell you that being treated like a criminal the last thing I will voluntarily submit to if it can be avoided. I sure won't fly several thousand miles only to experience the humilation of having my fingerprints taken as soon as I exit the plane that brought me there.

> Otherwise we'll just keep on bitching and complaining with you since it seems
> that it's all you're good for around here when it comes to the american problem.

So what do you know about me and what I am doing besides wasting my time talking to a bunch of Complacent Fucks on the internet? Come on, spill the beans, I take the chance of my identity being exposed.

> Tough fucking shit for the world as I see it but worse for us than for you but
> not as bad as it is for the iraqis.

So what are YOU going to do about it?

> You never quite come out and say it, but it seems that's where you want this
> country to go to.

What drugs are you on lately? Can I have some too?

> What are you doing about it?

More than at least 250 million complacent fucks are doing.

> It's that ability to lump us all together that earns you so many admirers here

At least 250 out of 300 million is roughly 83%. 83%, probably more. Sorry for taking the liberty of lumping the 1 digit percentage who clearly are non-Complacent Fucks and DO SOMETHING together with the rest who don't give a shit about anything. As a non-Complacent non-Fuck you just have to get used to it for the next few years.

> (I know, I know - you don't give a shit)

That is 100% correct.

> I am not a complacent fuck and sure as fuck don't deserve that cunt in office
> and you can take that self-righteous anger and stick it,

At least you had a choice (and still have choices) that most of us don't have.

> who are you to lecture us?

A human being with a conscience.

> Nobody likes that man (GWB) and we are all just venting our anger and frustration.

He surely got a lot of votes and abstentions for being disliked, didn't he?

> Being a cunt to all the americans here is stupid because nearly all of us are
> against him (besides Sam and Buster) and his policies.

Being against him isn't enough, dear non-Complacent non-Fuck.

> Any americans bitching are just doing the same - perhaps we should drop all
> political discussions here.

Perhaps those that aren't already doing so should get their ass in motion and fucking DO SOMETHING. Being a child of the seventies and eighties I remember how my generation was able to influence the course of history and politics on a local (and with limits on a global) scale, but I don't see many of that happening these days.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-07-04 23:19
No 540263
      You...

Are my new hero! I have been at my wit's end with these fuckin' Bushies. I go to a really consevative college in the so-called 'Heartland', and this is all I've heard since Tuesday. Jade, keep up the fight! Not necessarily at the expense of your employment, but you know... But I digress. I have been doing nothing BUT spreading the word since D-DAY, I know it doesn't do a lick of good, but that's me, don't learn from my mistakes and all that proverbial jazz. Regardless, if we all become complacent, then we might as well all leave the USA, because it won't be our (read: non-redneck non-retards) nation any longer. I hope that in your situation, all goes well, but if not, fuck it! It's a big world out there, and I'd be willing to wager that your children (if you have any) could do well with being bi- or tri-lingual. Keep the faith sister! All that will be shall come to pass! And if it doesn't, force it to come to pass! smile

laugh xMOJOx laugh

I'm xMOJOx, and I say, fuck a partisan message! Revolution is our duty!

buz
(Hive Bee)
11-08-04 00:45
No 540281
      death penalty for abortion?

women who have abortions should bee killed.
as should the doctor that preforms it.

in fact, alot of people need to bee killed to keep freedom ringing.

the election thread needs to bee killed.

its over.

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-08-04 00:58
No 540284
      wow

Buz i feel sorry for the amount of shit your about to eat. It is not over until January 20, 2005

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-08-04 01:06
No 540287
User Picture       Good grief!

the election thread needs to bee killed.

its over.

Nobody is making you read it, are they? crazy

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

buz
(Hive Bee)
11-08-04 01:10
No 540288
      that was spoof

i'm trying to get into the "new mood".
i think the proper mood to bee into as an american, is a mood of wanting to kill people whom kill embryos.

of loving christ and lethal weapons equally.

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
11-08-04 01:15
No 540289
      You shouldnt get in any "mood" Zib,...

You shouldnt get in any "mood" Zib, but onto your pirate ship as promised.

And fast please.

so near, so far......

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-08-04 03:59
No 540334
User Picture       Will you marry me Jade.

I found her hiding behind some other vehicles laughing like she had really done something funny with the marking tool still in her hand. I guess I had a little more anger built up inside of me than I had realized cause before I knew it, I had her down and was proceeding to make her eat it when some co-workers pulled me off.   Even though I am a department head and in some serious trouble with corporate, it felt good. DAMN GOOD!

She damaged your property..............fuck her.

I would have made her eat the marker too.

The problems of the U.S. are far too entrenched to be undone via the popular vote.

I would ask all potential agitators to consider the merits of getting involved in a secessionist movement.

Otherwise, I am convinced that regime change in the U.S. will only be achieved via force.

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-08-04 04:09
No 540336
      >Perhaps those that aren't already doing so

>Perhaps those that aren't already doing so should get their
>ass in motion and fucking DO SOMETHING

Could you be more specific? I think a lot of people here would do something if they thought it would work. Write letters? Protest? What exactly do you think we should do?

And furthermore, what will be the objective of this campaign? Immediate pullout from Iraq? Impeachment of president bush? Something else?

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-08-04 04:41
No 540347
User Picture       Guerilla tactics

organise, organise, organise

http://www.anarco-nyc.net/organizers/organizers7.html

http://struggle.ws/

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ap/organise.html

http://www.radio4all.org/aia/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/kk_abacus/

http://www.geocities.com/kk_abacus/vbutterfly.html

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT ANARCHISM

Anarchism is sort of a new phenomenon, right?

Nope. The idea that everyday people, the oppressed, the exploited, are not only capable but have the right to organize their own lives is an idea as old as time itself. What makes an anarchist an anarchist is her dedication to upholding this principle in the work that she does, the relationships that she has, and the ideas she advocates. Anarchists work by the principle that whatever allows the most people to control their own lives should be fought for.

Anarchists aren't really FOR anything, are they?

One misconception about anarchism is that it is all about being "against" stuff, like Capitalism, State Communism, oppression, globalization, etc, etc. Actually, many anarchists are concerned and interested in detailing another world that they believe could be possible, if only we worked really hard at it (and learned from history). See HERE for examples of what anarchists are for.

I read in the paper today that anarchists are terrorists. Is this true?

Not at all. As a matter of fact, anarchists are fully aligned against ALL forms of terrorism, as terrorism is the indiscriminate use of violence to frighten and instill fear in not only the "authorities", but everyday people, civilians and common folk. Terrorism is "coercion" in its most brutal sense, which is explicitly anti-anarchistic, as anarchists are against most forms of coercion, unless absolutely necessary.

Do anarchists believe in violence?

Most anarchists believe that the only violence that is legitimate is violence that is used to defend the personal or community body, as, for instance, against police brutality. Anarchists rarely believe in violence used as an offensive measure. Anarchists are also against the violence that happens at summits and convergences ... like such violence as it is practiced by the POLICE.

Anarchy is all about chaos and disorder, right?

Wrong. This is what the corporate media and the police wish to portray anarchism as. But in fact anarchists believe in organization and "order" just as much as other groups, we just believe in a DIFFERENT KIND of organization (and tend to not use the term "order" to describe this), one that is both implicitly and explicitly from the bottom up, egalitarian, and transparent.

Do anarchists vote?

Yes and no. Many anarchists vote as a practice of an individual nature. But most anarchist will deny the importance of exerting a great deal of energy getting one's candidate elected to office, as this is counter-productive when one is interested in showing, through education and example, the possibility of people running their own lives, in a collective fashion, without the use of bureaucrats and politicians.

Anarchist have no leaders, and are against the idea of leadership at all?

Not exactly. Most anarchists believe that instead of having NO LEADERS, that we should ALL BE LEADERS, at least theoretically. In actuality, we all have a chance to take a crack at leadership roles, like facilitating a meeting, or speaking at a press conference, etc, etc. More formally, many anarchists believe that leadership should be ultimately accountable to the "base" from which it derives its "authority".

Most anarchists are insular and uninvolved in real struggles for emancipation and liberation.

Clearly not true. Anarchists are involved in all sorts of movements and struggles, from housing rights, to prison abolition, to international fair trade campaigns, to opposition to wars, even involving boycotts of K-Mart selling toy soldiers with guns.

Are anarchists revolutionaries?

Yes. Most anarchists believe, and work toward, a social revolution that overturns all hierarchies including, but not limited to, oppressive authority. The social relationship that is dictated by capitalism, racism, and sexism is overturned and a world of endless possibilities (in the space that new found freedom opens) will take its place.

Are anarchists opposed to technology and industry?

Obviously not, if you are reading this here web page from a computer. Anarchists were the first political tendency to utilize the internet as an organizing tool for global demonstrations. And many anarchists believe that the principles of anarchist-syndicalism is the most logical way to organize an advance industrial system like that which exists in the "overdeveloped" world (the global North).

Are anarchists anti-religious?

Not really. Many anarchist have very spiritual lives, both within and outside of the anarchist "movement". But general their spiritualism reflects their belief in the ultimate goodness of people, rather than some conception of "original sin" that says that we are born evil, and must- through some white, male figurehead- become "enlightened".

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-08-04 04:52
No 540348
      thanks, but no thanks

I'm not into anarchy, and I don't think the majority of people that voted against Bush are either. Actually I could care less whether our government was a dictatorship, as long as the dictator was intelligent and fair.

Even if I did agree with your plans, what would the strategy be? Get a bunch of people to become anarchists? Then what? Storm Washington DC, with guns blazing? The rednecks would form a militia and kill us, then elect another republican to the presidency.

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-08-04 05:15
No 540352
User Picture       Re: I assumed it said on the sign on the front

I assumed it said on the sign on the front entrance that only adults were allowed in here. They should be able to figure it out on their own.

What he means by that is, he doesn't know either.

Every country has undergone periods where change was forthcoming but hasn't happened yet. Things will eventually change here. It may not happen according to your prefered timeline, but it will.

If the complacent fucks in Germany had done something about Hitler, 50,000,000 people wouldn't have died. It's easy to look back at that time today and blame the people of Germany for not doing anything, but obviously the people living in Germany at the time couldn't forsee the disasterous future or if they did, they couldn't come up with a way to stop it or chose not to out of fear of retribution from the government. In the end, it took an outside force to change what the complacent fucks of Germany didn't have the balls or the intelligence to do themselves.

You seem to think overhauling a government is an easy task that occurs overnight. Maybe if we all hold hands and sing "we are the world" things will get better.

> What are you doing about it?

More than at least 250 million complacent fucks are doing.

You still won't share this closely gaurded secret with us. For someone who claims to want there to be a change in America to end the loss of life, you don't seem very interested in offering any solutions. I guess you either don't have any answers or really don't give a fuck about how many people the US kills. It's probably a combination of both.

He surely got a lot of votes and abstentions for being disliked, didn't he?

Nowhere near a majority support Bush. You keep clinging to those official numbers though if it makes you feel better. It must make it much easier to hate Americans as long as you subscribe to the belief that they "got what they deserve" instead of realizing they really got screwed by the Republican party.

Perhaps those that aren't already doing so should get their ass in motion and fucking DO SOMETHING. Being a child of the seventies and eighties I remember how my generation was able to influence the course of history and politics on a local (and with limits on a global) scale, but I don't see many of that happening these days.

WHAT? You mean it took TWO DECADES for you to influence the course of history? And here we've been dealing with George Bush for 4 whole years. You didn't influence change by overthrowing the government or taking up arms. You did it politically, and the political process takes time. Why you think it takes less time in America, I have no fucking idea.

Milk rots your brain.

squeamish
(Hive Bee)
11-08-04 05:55
No 540360
User Picture       Re: Because I don't believe it.

Because I don't believe it.

Wow, you mean you don't believe a Weekly World News article?

Strip away their armor...
...wash the halls in blood!

dumbjanitor
(Hive Bee)
11-08-04 05:57
No 540362
      police state!

Your so luckey koretexx to live in a place thats not under police state yet, where i'm from it is getting crazy. road blocks, police-militery operations, id searches. i want to move to canada

squeamish
(Hive Bee)
11-08-04 06:09
No 540365
User Picture       Re: This has been planned for some time.

This has been planned for some time. The Clintons are not idiots, they know how to use and exploit their own party in order to set the stage for 2008.

Not true. Bill Clinton spken extensively with John Kerry and counselled him on his campaign prior to 11/2. In fact, one piece of advice Bill Clinton gave Kerry was to publicly oppose gay marriage. Look how much of an effect the gay marriage issue had on the election--too bad for Kerry he didn't take that advice.

Strip away their armor...
...wash the halls in blood!

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-08-04 10:29
No 540392
      for starters...

how about weekly anti-war protests?

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-08-04 10:54
No 540396
User Picture       I think holding hands and singing "We are

I think holding hands and singing "We are the World" would have just about as much effect.

Besides, it wont help matters to have all the pacifists locked up for "disorderly conduct" and "unpatriotism".

Milk rots your brain.

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-08-04 12:24
No 540407
      yep,

exactly that attitude brought you were you are. so in a sense osmium is right.

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-08-04 12:27
No 540409
User Picture       excuse me?

Exactly how does going to jail for 30 years improve the state of world affairs?

Milk rots your brain.

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-08-04 12:58
No 540417
      That was then, this is now

Exactly how does going to jail for 30 years improve the state of world affairs?

It won't, but you'll be famous for it. wink

There was a time that protesters could make a difference, such as in the 70's. However, I haven't seen where it does a damn bit of good now. As with everything else, our rights have been taken away.

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-08-04 13:09
No 540422
      ridiculous

> There was a time that protesters could make a difference, such as in the 70's.

do you think peace protests in the 60ies were happening in a less repressive
environment? you can't be serious. apparently you don't want to fight for your
rights.

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-08-04 13:12
No 540424
User Picture       Protests have no power to change anything in a

Protests have no power to change anything in a country where the government doesn't give a fuck about the opinion of its people. Ask the students at Tiananmen Square how good their protest went.

Milk rots your brain.

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-08-04 13:15
No 540425
      some things...

...are worth taking a risk.

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Jade
11-08-04 13:16
      Oh, yeah
(Rated as: hater rhetoric)

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-08-04 13:19
No 540427
User Picture       If you're so concerned

Grab a sign and come on over then.

It's pretty easy from the safety of another country half way around the world to tell other people what they should be doing and how much they should risk, when you know you personally won't be affected or give a shit when their lives are destroyed.

Milk rots your brain.

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-08-04 13:20
No 540428
      cool, jade!
(Rated as: flaming?????)

you're back to the HATER rhetoric.

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-08-04 13:21
No 540429
User Picture       You never left it.

You never left it.

Milk rots your brain.

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-08-04 13:24
No 540430
      sad.
(Rated as: flaming???)

i never realised what a bunch of cowards you are. osmium _is_ right after all.

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-08-04 13:26
No 540431
User Picture       Big words from someone who's never had to...

Big words from someone who's never had to stand up for anything. I'll invite you again to grab a sign and come over here, unless you're a coward of course.

Which you most certainly are.

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
11-08-04 13:56
No 540436
      I would like to see the people in the USA...
(Rated as: You forgot to rate this one unobtainium)

I would like to see the people in the USA starting to protest and resist against whats happening to their freedom and to the world by US-policy. Therefor this is true for me too
The fall of the United States is something you seem to want way too much.
I believe that the fall of the USA as dominating political power is necessary for the ppl of the USA to regain their personal freedom. This is doubtless connected. Doubtless for me of course.

So I would like to see the people in the USA starting to protest and resist, but I cannot demand it and I cannot tell them how they have to do this. Its their business, their decision, their country, their lifes. If enough individuals have made the definitive decision to resist, resistance will start in one form or another. Thats the way it works.
I tell my opinion, its not up to me to advise anyone without being asked. I know how political resistance can affect a person from my own experiences, from standing in clouds of teargas day after day, for being harassed by the police, being marked as potential terrorist in the computers of the goverment, files never to get deleted. I dont complain, it was worth it, worth it for me to look at my face in the mirror without shame. What I did was done because I had to do it, I had no real choice. When enough people in the USA feel this way, feel that resistance is what they have to do for to be able to look in the mirror again, then something will start. And some will have to pay a price.

I cant spell, I bad look, the only thing about me is I know how to cook......

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-08-04 21:14
No 540476
      >how about weekly anti-war protests?

>how about weekly anti-war protests?

Okay, that is a start. And what will be the goal of these protests? Immediate pullout from Iraq?

Everybody thinks that is a bad idea. At least there appeared to be some sense in pulling out of vietnam. In Iraq, it seems like there will be a civil war if we pull out now. Even most Kerry supporters will agree with this sentiment.

And to all of the posters advocating some general "resistance" effort. What would happen if we did successfully overthrow the government? Would the gun-toting republicans that comprise a huge portion of our population just stand by idly as we took over, then accept the legitimacy of our new government? No. They would fight back, perhaps resulting in a civil war.

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-08-04 21:41
No 540484
      >I dont complain, it was worth it, worth it

>I dont complain, it was worth it, worth it for me to look at my face in the mirror without shame.

But did it actually do anything? Besides making you feel better about yourself?

Much like bush, you people are telling us to go to war without a plan to win the peace. Without any plan, for that matter. How the heck are we supposed to effect change in our government without a specific, detailed plan? I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying we need to figure out HOW it will be done, exactly. Actually sit down and think about what we are going to do.

And don't tell me that the vietnam protestors didn't have a plan. They did, it was called "protest until the government pulls out of vietnam". You can't even give us that much.

Finally, sitting around and doing nothing is also a viable strategy. If the voice of resistance is eerily quiet in the next couple years, bush will implement his idiotic policies that much more readily. And it will become apparent that much quicker that he needs to be stopped.

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-08-04 23:12
No 540506
User Picture       Sheesh, you people need a written script to...

Sheesh, you people need a written script to wipe your ass or what?

> Much like bush, you people are telling us to go to war without a plan to win the peace.

Nobody is telling you to go to WAR dumbass! We are talking about peaceful protests.

> And what will be the goal of these protests? Immediate pullout from Iraq?

How about stopping the senseless killing going on right now for example? Isn't that enough?

> And to all of the posters advocating some general "resistance" effort. What
> would happen if we did successfully overthrow the government?

Who was talking about overthrowing the government dumbass? Are you people fed violence from your mom's breast? Last time I checked peaceful assembly and protesting was a human right.
If oh so many Americans are against this war, the killing and everything, then why aren't they making themselves heard? Why aren't they fucking take a stand, unite, go out into the streets and collectively make themselves heard? Will it immediately change anything? NO OF COURSE NOT! But guess what the government will end up doing if those people just won't shut up and their numbers rise?

> But did it actually do anything? Besides making you feel better about yourself?

Yes it did a whole lot. I don't know where orgy participated, but there were many successful protests in the last 30 years in Europe. I certainly was involved in several of them and still am. These movements changed a whole lot. From nuclear power stations that weren't build, pollution that was stopped, nuclear weapons that weren't fielded, landmines finally being banned, environmentalists becoming established and successful political parties and even participants in some nation's governments. And so fucking on. Some of you might even remember when the iron curtain collapsed. Remember the millions of people worldwide crowding the streets prior to the Iraq fiasco? Yes, they didn't stop the war. But they had an important effect: uniting people across borders to make themselves heard, and they sure as hell influenced local governments. Can you imagine what it means for 14 year old teens when their teacher tells them they can skip class and join the protests, or when they all go together?

What happened? That once worked in the US too. When did you forget how to do that? When the supersized menues were introduced?

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
11-08-04 23:57
No 540512
      Yes

But did it actually do anything? Besides making you feel better about yourself?
The protests were quite sucessful as I now would judge it. I would engage in protest again nowadays, in protests against the loss of freedom, of civil liberty as this is very necessary. But I am expatriated and I wont come back as a tourist to protest. I would and will support a protest movement though. There are ways. There are ALWAYS ways as there is always a choice.

I cant spell, I bad look, the only thing about me is I know how to cook......

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 00:10
No 540513
      >Sheesh, you people need a written script...

>Sheesh, you people need a written script to wipe your ass or what?

Yes! All I am asking for is some instructions on what we should do. A strategy. You don't seem to realize how immensely helpful that would be. And if influencing your government really is as simple as wiping your ass, you should have these instructions drafted in no time.

>How about stopping the senseless killing going on right now for example?

Elaborate. Do you mean the senseless killing in Iraq? I think so. Are you saying we should demand an immediate pullout from Iraq? Do you honestly think that is going to work?

>But guess what the government will end up doing if those people just won't shut up and their numbers rise?

Tell us Osmium, what will they do? Will they pull out of Iraq, with complete disregard for the current state of affairs, setting the stage for complete chaos and probably civil war? That will only result in more senseless killing than if we hadn't pulled out at all.

I never said that protesting can't change things. All I want is to know what we are protesting. What is our goal. If nothing else, please answer this one question. What, specifically, are we hoping to achieve with these protests? Can anyone answer this? Osmium? Organikum? abolt? hypo? Anyone?

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 00:27
No 540515
      Here it is again, in the form of a multiple...

Here it is again, in the form of a multiple choice question. If anyone can think of other choices, feel free to post them.

What, specifically are we hoping to achieve with these protests?

A. Immediate pullout from Iraq

B. Remaining in Iraq, but not killing anyone. Attempting to negotiate with the insurgents instead.

C. Remaining in Iraq, killing only the insurgents. Not killing any civilians.

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 00:33
No 540516
      And Osmium, I also question your strategy for...

Also Osmium, I question your strategy for getting people motivated to change things. You have gone the insult route before and it has done nothing, why are you still using this tactic?

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-09-04 00:37
No 540519
User Picture       I am not motivating anyone.

I am not trying to motivate anyone. I am just wondering what the fuck is up with you. You people are all grownups, if you can't tie your shoelaces on your own then I'm not the one to show you.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 00:45
No 540521
      1. Motivating people is the way to get ...

1. Motivating people is the way to get protests started.

2. Protests can stop the war.

3. You refuse to help get people motivated.

Come on Osmium. You have the power to get this thing going, yet you refuse to do so. Why is that, exactly? Are you hoping that someone else will do it for you?

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 01:00
No 540524
User Picture       Even if I did agree with your plans, what...

Even if I did agree with your plans, what would the strategy be?

Like I said.......organise, organise,organise. For starters I would Contact other interest groups and target the inaugaration.

OVER 55 MILLION PEOPLE VOTED FOR THE DEMOCRATS, GET 1 MILLION PEOPLE TO BLOCKADE BUSHES INAUGARATION ON THE 20TH OF JANUARY 2005, AND CREATE CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. DEMAND THE RETURN OF THE SOLDIERS AND THE REINSTITUTION OF RIGHTS.

THE ONLY PRICE OF LIBERTY, IS THE COURAGE TO GO AND GET IT!

The history books state that MILLIONS of your countrymen have laid down their lives to protect your freedoms.

In this dark hour, WHAT WILL YOU DO?

Get a bunch of people to become anarchists?

If they so wish to, then why not? I believe that mankind is generally "anarchist" by nature. One thing that cannot be denied is that Capitalism is a failure, and a contradiction of the laws of nature.

How else can you explain Bush?

Then what? Storm Washington DC, with guns blazing?

Only as a last resort.

What, specifically are we hoping to achieve with these protests?

A. Immediate pullout from Iraq

For starters, yes.

B. Remaining in Iraq, but not killing anyone. Attempting to negotiate with the insurgents instead.

The destabilisation caused by the U.S. invasion is going to continue whether the U.S. is their or not.

Define "insurgent".

C. Remaining in Iraq, killing only the insurgents. Not killing any civilians.

The United States and it's allies should withdraw immediately and offer political asylum to those it has put in danger, due to collaboration. The United States government, and it's allies must be bought before the I.C.C.

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-09-04 01:03
No 540526
User Picture       > Why is that, exactly?

> Why is that, exactly?

Because I have better things to do than entertain some complacent fucks.

> Are you hoping that someone else will do it for you?

What is up with all this female logic lately? Is that sentence supposed to make any sense whatsoever?

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 01:06
No 540528
      It was a trick question.

It was a trick question. All three options are either stupid, impossible, or both. That is why it is called a quagmire.

>The destabilisation caused by the U.S. invasion is going to continue whether the U.S. is their or not.

So you are saying that there will be just as much senseless killing whether we leave or stay? Why bother protesting then?

>Because I have better things to do than entertain some complacent fucks.

Okay, fine. You win. But I'm still waiting for your answer to the question I posted above.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 01:17
No 540532
User Picture       It was a trick question.

It was a trick question. All three options are either stupid, impossible, or both.

You are obviously seriously hindered by your capacity of thought.

So you are saying that there will be just as much senseless killing whether we leave or stay?

I thought I said "The destabilisation caused by the U.S. invasion is going to continue whether the U.S. is their or not" and then followed with "The United States and it's allies should withdraw immediately and offer political asylum to those it has put in danger, due to collaboration."

Do I need to connect the dots?

Why bother protesting then?

It looks as if you are looking for a reason to justify sitting on your ass and doing nothing.

StraightEdge, if you are going to ask me to help explain things for you, and I go to the time and effort of providing information, at least have the COMMON FUCKING COURTESY of looking and evaluatiing what I provide, before following with ignorant comments.

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 01:32
No 540536
      Okay, we are moving along nicely.

Okay, we are moving along nicely. Now our protests have a goal, that goal being the immediate pullout of occupying troops from Iraq.

But wait, I thought our ultimate goal was to stop the senseless killing. Can you prove, with even 51% certainty, that leaving Iraq right now will not result in more senseless killing than staying there?

And can you also prove, with at least 51% certainty, that protesting will get us out of there faster than just waiting for the war to end?

I am sorry I did not spend enough time evaluating the information from your last post. I will try harder to do that from now on.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 01:44
No 540538
User Picture       But wait, I thought our ultimate goal was to...

But wait, I thought our ultimate goal was to stop the senseless killing.Can you prove, with even 51% certainty, that leaving Iraq right now will not result in more senseless killing than staying there?

I am prepared to stand by my stance that, the least amount of casualties will result from the U.S. and allies pulling out and offering asylum to those Iraqi citizens that believe they are in danger from this pullout.

And can you also prove, with at least 51% certainty, that protesting will get us out of there faster than just waiting for the war to end?

I will state that protesting will be 100% more effective at bringing the troops out of Iraq, than not protesting.

Please stop framing your questions with ridiculous notions of "prove" and "certainty". I cannot "prove" with "certainty" that the Sun will rise tomorrow.

Would you use that fact as a basis on how you live your life today?

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-09-04 02:02
No 540539
User Picture       Re: I will state that protesting will be 100%...

I will state that protesting will be 100% more effective at bringing the troops out of Iraq, than not protesting.

Not in America it won't. Protesting the US government is about as effective as arguing with a fundementalist christain. You can be 100% right and still not change their mind. There are people here now who were arrested for protesting the Iraq invasion. 1000 people were arrested for protesting the republican convention.

The government doesn't look at protesters and think "Gee, there's a lot of them, maybe we should listen to what they are trying to say". Instead, they think, "gee, there's a lot of them. Lets call some riot police and teargas these fuckers."

Protesting may work in other countries, but it doesn't work here. In order for it to be effective, the government has to give a shit, which they don't.

Milk rots your brain.

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 02:14
No 540540
      >Please stop framing your questions with...

>Please stop framing your questions with ridiculous notions of "prove" and "certainty". I cannot "prove" with "certainty" that the Sun will rise tomorrow.

Okay, good point. But I think you know what I meant.

Obviously to prove something is going to happen, you have to be able to predict the future. This can't be done. But if you feed the circumstances of the thing you wish to predict into a brain which has shown a previously good success rate of making predictions that involved similar circumstances, there is a good chance that the prediction will be accurate.

You are asking us to use your brain for this purpose. Your prediction is that pulling out of Iraq/offering asylum will result in fewer casualties. And that protesting will get us out of Iraq faster than sitting around doing nothing.

Please provide a list of events that you predicted correctly in the past, as well as their circumstances, so that we may verify your success rate. Once that is complete, we can move forward with the plans for the protests.

It is difficult for anyone to provide even that information, so most people rely on traits like wealth, charisma, accomplishment, and sense of humor as a substitute for success rate. I would ask you to prove that you have all of these traits, but I doubt they correlate with success rate in this instance, so it is pointless.

Just try to enjoy your life as much as possible from now on. That will bring you far more happiness than protesting based on things you can’t even predict.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 02:30
No 540542
User Picture       1775 revisited

Not in America it won't. Protesting the US government is about as effective as arguing with a fundementalist christain. You can be 100% right and still not change their mind. There are people here now who were arrested for protesting the Iraq invasion. 1000 people were arrested for protesting the republican convention.

So you can't protest and you can't have fair elections? Then the war has already begun.

We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

A-FUCKING-MEN!

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
11-09-04 02:47
No 540543
      Not true

Protesting may work in other countries, but it doesn't work here
Thats of course nonsense. Protesting works the same all over the world. Success is never guaranteed and never to reach in the first run. And success is a question of definition. It is not up to me and not up to you to judge for example if the protests of the chinese students were:
- no success at all
- a partial success
- a full success in long run

This should be understood but probably is not, for some people think themselves being the navel and wisdom of the world and believe they are called to judge all and everything, everywhere. Cultural imperialism in its lowest form of persons with no culture at all.

Again, I dont say anybody in the USA should protest. No, its up to the US-americans what to do and what not. But no lame excuses please, just say you dont want to or its not the right thing to do now and for you as you believe. Thats ok.

And:
The government doesn't look at protesters and think "Gee, there's a lot of them, maybe we should listen to what they are trying to say". Instead, they think, "gee, there's a lot of them. Lets call some riot police and teargas these fuckers."
WTF do you think happened in the days I was sniffing teargas and throwing stones and running from the pigs? Exactly this. And not the goverment changed its mind, no, they changed their plans because it looked to be the right thing to hold power to them. And thats it. The goverment doesnt change its mind, the goverment may loose its head but thats called revolution and not protesting.

I cant spell, I bad look, the only thing about me is I know how to cook......

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-09-04 02:47
No 540544
User Picture       The reason why Kerry Lost

The reason why Kerry Lost:

After reviewing this thread sentence by sentence it has become clear to me the real reason why Kerry Lost.

Those that voted for Bush had one thing in common, they more or less shared the same common view. Weather we speak of Kansas Farmers or Mississipi Pentecostals. The thoughts, ideas, values, and vision shared by all of the red states, was the same. Don't get me wrong there could be a civil war between every state in the bible belt if the war was on who's religion was the "bestest". But when it comes to casting a vote for president they seem to join together as one.

How Bush Won, By standing behind what he believed and never turning his back, or changing his stance. (As Unob stated, this is like arguing with fundamental christians) Exactly! This is precisely what we are dealind with, George Bush's behaviours are that of a fundamental christian, (fuck the man could not even think of one time that he has made a mistake during his first four years!) This "trait" is what fundamentalists look for, because this is how they feel about their personal views and values.

We must realize that most of this country is comprised of undeducated, bible thumping, firearm owning, rednecks, that are in dire need of a leader that will at the very least not allow gay's to be married, won't let "wetbacks" cross the river, talks about a higher power at least once per public appearence, performs at least some kind of duty on a tractor, is affiliated with a "ranch" of any kind, and doesn't talk like they are better than the majority of americans.

The bottom line, Kerry Appealed to those in College or University, the Holywood Elitists that live in their own world, the educated, the rich, and the poor that reside in the urban areas of the country, (if you don't believe that take a damn good look at the electorate by county. You may be surprised. George Bush appealed to everyone else, Guess What? There are alot more of the "everyone elses".

Another problem, look how well Kerry Supporters get along, this thread for example. From reading this thread I feel as if there is more of a rivalry between Kerry Supporters, than there is between Kerry:Bush rivals. I think this may also be a huge problem for the Democratic Party. I think folks like Michael Moore offended a whole lot more people than he "showed the light" to. If the democratic party wants to find it's way back into the office they will have to at least fake there way into it. Just as Dubya faked his first four years. Big surprise the violent attacks on Fuluja, if you thought Bush was a Republican, Conservative Asshole his first four years, y'all have not seen shit yet. This man has a free reign, he does not have to appease those that do not think his way anymore, let alone "meet any democrat halfway". The fact that the liberal media is "wondering" if Bush will extend an olive branch, or to meet half way between the parties is absolutely ludacris. The way I see it, Bush no longer cares if there is a democrat party, from here on out it is Drugs, and Guns, who ever kills the most wins, let's not forget the cocaine.

that's kinda my take on all of this,

methyl_ethyl

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 02:48
No 540545
User Picture       Okay, good point. But I think you know what I...

Okay, good point. But I think you know what I meant.

Yes, I know what you were trying to do, and it is pathetic and cowardly.

You obviously have no idea what the "good point" is, that I was making.

Stop "faking it", you have been found out.

Obviously to prove something is going to happen, you have to be able to predict the future. This can't be done. But if you feed the circumstances of the thing you wish to predict into a brain which has shown a previously good success rate of making predictions that involved similar circumstances, there is a good chance that the prediction will be accurate.

You are asking us to use your brain for this purpose. Your prediction is that pulling out of Iraq/offering asylum will result in fewer casualties. And that protesting will get us out of Iraq faster than sitting around doing nothing.

Please provide a list of events that you predicted correctly in the past, as well as their circumstances, so that we may verify your success rate. Once that is complete, we can move forward with the plans for the protests.

First you concede that I make a "good point" and then you revert back to the same ridiculous psychology. Do you even understand what is being said?

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 02:56
No 540546
User Picture       It is not up to me and not up to you to judge...

It is not up to me and not up to you to judge for example if the protests of the chinese students were:
- no success at all
- a partial success
- a full success in long run

Organikum raises a very good point.

What this man had the courage to start, has not ended.

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 02:58
No 540547
      Os, Abolt, hypo, etc.

You guys are right. Something must be done. But those 50-odd million people who voted against Bush are MUCH more complacent than you'd imagine. No well-fed, coddled populace with the most toys is going to revolt, or even put up a half-hearted protest. Conditions have to become intolerable before the masses are moved to action. For every American like me, who wishes to effect change by any means necessary, there are ten, nay, one hundred more who'd much rather do nothing, and let the more radical elements of society, i.e. Me and my ilk, do the dirty work. That's the American Way! In the immortal words of Homer Simpson, "Can't someone else do it?" As for me, I say fuck this place. Any country where roughly half of the people think that George W. Bush is a good idea is most assuredly NOT the country for me. My solution? Get the fuck outta Dodge. These pricks can have the mess they made. As for me, I'll hopefully be living somewhere where I can watch the descent of my native land into chaos without being a part of it. I hate to be too defeatist about it, but it is far too late for a grass-roots movement of any sort to succeed. The time for that was post-election day 2000. And we (by which I mean non-Republican douchebags) just let it slide then, thinking, "We'll get 'em next time. Next time we won't let 'em steal the election." AND GUESS WHAT??? THIS WAS "NEXT TIME"!!! I for one am goddamn sick and tired of hearing the same "We'll get 'em next time!" as I heard four years ago. A popular working definition of insanity is doing the same thing, yet expecting a different result. Well my friends, if that is to be the standard, the Democratic Party of the United States of America is off the fucking deep end. And these are the people who you'd ask to do something, anything, in order to prevent this catastrophe from snowballing? Excuse me, I need to vomit now...

mad xMOJOx mad

The United States of America   July 4, 1776 - November 2, 2004

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 03:00
No 540548
User Picture       You make some good points MOJO

GIVE ME CONVENIENCE, OR GIVE ME DEATH - Jello Biafra.

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 03:15
No 540552
      abolt

I am a pathetic coward. So what? This is of no relevance to the topic at hand, the topic of your predictive abilities that you are asking us to rely on. We need at least some evidence that you are right, before we can convince people to spend their time and effort on protests.

Come on, man. We have gotten this far. There is some semblance of a plan now. Just tell us why we should believe your predictions from post 540538, and we can continue working on the plan.

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-09-04 03:27
No 540554
User Picture       Abolt My love

Abolt My Love,

Jello Biafra, was/is one of my favorite "front men" to the great revolution of what I called "back in the day" "Poly-Punk" or what is known as political punk, I think poly looks better in text than poli. I probably feel that way due to my early exposure to the polymer sciences. Regardless the Dead Kennedy's always impressed me with their wit, and the fact that they knew exactly what was going on in the world at the time. Unfortunately I feel the democratic majority has lost it's relationship with the Dead Kennedy's. Most of today's democrats would not know who Pol Pot was, or what a kepone factory in Minimata manufactured, or why nazi punks should fuck off. The cover art for In God We Trust Inc. paved the way for the beliefs that I have today. It seems that america is suffering from the government flu wouldn't you think, too bad we can't provide a vaccination against such an infliction. I could go on and on about my favourite band of yore.

I can thank the Dead Kennedy's for my interest in politics, and I can thank the hive for my interest in well, topics that are relevent to the hive wink .

much_love

methyl_ethyl

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 03:47
No 540558
      Fucking Pol Pot...

You are 100%, dead-on right, m_e. A good friend of mine is a Cambodian (Or is it Kampuchean? Ah, never mind) exchange student. Much of his family was murdered during the Khmer Rouge-era massacres. People he never had a chance to meet, in essence, because they were killed before he was old enough to remember them. They were members of the political opposition in the early days, before Pol Pot and Co. had consolidated their stranglehold on the country. You hit the nail right on the head. In this world where Western students are taught about Hitler and Stalin from day one, it is appaling that most know NOTHING of this shameful chapter of recent history. My friend, Montha, laments the fact that Americans know virtually nothing about his nation or its people, but most of all, the terrible, terrible things that happened there in the 1970's. These events have no (or painfully little) memory amongst our people. But from what I've seen, the wounds for the Cambodian people are all too raw.

God help we humans. We sure do need it about now... And have needed it for some time.

frown xMOJOx frown

The greatest experiment in democratic governance that the world has ever known ended on Nov.2, 2004.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 03:58
No 540561
User Picture       Official Prediction

I predict that xMOJOx will make a post in this thread in 17 minutes.

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-09-04 04:13
No 540563
      Recent History

it is appaling that most know NOTHING of this shameful chapter of recent history.

Another resource that opened my eye to what the local media blinded me from was:

Soldier Of Fortune Magazine

Ok you will probably call me a right wing, war monger but allow me to explain. When I was quite young ~8-11 years of age I would go to my grandparents house on weekends. I would go down to the basement where my uncle resided to watch Monty Python (and laugh my ass off for no apparent reason). Well by the rocking chair were stacks of Soldier Of Fortune Magazines that my Uncle read. These magazines showed me things that I was sure could not actually happen in the world that I so happily and ignorantly existed in.

Pictures of death, pictures that were not allowed to be released to the general public. As crazy as it seems that periodical (not even sure if it is still around anymore, and if it is, it is more than likely filtered as most other previous freedoms and liberties) opened my eyes and made me realize that there is much much more to this world than the sheltered, bubble that most of everyone I knew lived in.

regards,

methyl_ethyl

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 04:15
No 540564
      An apt prognostication, abolt...

I just want to grip up the next Bushite I run across. And here in Redneck, USA, they're all too common. And once I have them in my nefarious clutches, I want to shake them so vigorously that they realize the massive error of their ways. A pipe dream? I choose not to believe so. But the essence of my idea is that each individual is responsible for bringing about change. Complacency is the essence of sin.

To paraphrase:

First they came for the Jews, and I said nothing, for I was not a Jew...

Then they came for the Gypsys, and I said nothing, for I was not a Gypsy...

Then the came for the Communists, and I said nothing, for I was not a Communist...

And then they came for me...

He who sits by and lets atrocity occur is as guilty as if he had commited the atrocity himself...

frown xMOJOx frown

Carpe fucking diem, for surely you shall may die.

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 04:16
No 540565
      Good. Your predictive abilities are flawless,...

Good. Your predictive abilities are flawless, just as I had hoped.

The next step of the plan is to get protests organized. To do this, we must get our message out to as many people as possible. We must market ourselves as a movement that people can rally around. Surely there are plenty of rich democrats (Michael moore, george soros, etc.) willing to finance this marketing campaign. Once we find such a person, buying up TV and newspaper advertisements would be the first priority.

So, these are the next steps we need to do:

1. Find a rich person who is willing to support our cause, and get them to send us the first check. I can do this.

2. Design the advertisements. I can probably do one or two newspaper ads, and write the script for a single TV ad. I think we will need a bunch of different ads to get people’s attention though. Who else is willing to help with this? Maybe we will have enough money from the first check to hire someone?

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-09-04 04:20
No 540567
User Picture       I must be a fuckin' genious

Excellent!

That's 1 out of 1..........or as I would put it........100%

StraightEdge.........I will see you at the revolution.

A PROUD MEMBER OF THE WESTERN MINORITY

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-09-04 04:23
No 540568
User Picture       Wrong

Sounds like the same campaign as '04

best get back to the drawing board, and look at how you can fundamentally change your message for the better, to a larger demographic.

I will tell you right now, Michael Moore can not help yor cause. He is regarded as too far out there. As I said before, if you want a chance in hell at getting power back you will have to be sneaky about it. No radical leftist propoganda, that only appeals to a very small percentage of the population. (sad but true those are the facts)

Protests may make you feel as if you made a difference,
but in the eyes of america you are an outsider that wants to instill demonic beliefs on the sacred fundamentalist bullshit they believe.

Don't get me wrong, it's great to stand up for what you believe in. You just have to make the decision, will this show the country that I am a rabblerouser (sp?) or will this get my party into power in 08'. This is very sensitive ground we tread on. Too much in the wrong direction can put the party away for another decade.....

m_e

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 04:38
No 540574
User Picture       and thats the problem in a nutshell

best get back to the drawing board, and look at how you can fundamentally change your message for the better, to a larger demographic.

Sad but true. Re-framing the mssg and putting a nice pretty centrist bow on it is all that the dems can do.
It's not ever going to work for the liberals as they stand right now. Some sort of shift to the center in inevitable for them to regain power. Or they could wait for the country to swing back their way.
Social values and mores are like a pendulum - throughout history we have seen this country swing from liberal to conservative and back. Society will chafe under these draconian christian mores and you will eventually see a backlash.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

squeamish
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 06:32
No 540588
User Picture       Don't forget that Kerry is the biggest fucking

Don't forget that Kerry is the biggest fucking douche in the universe. If Liebermann or Dean had won the Democratic nomination then Bush would have almost for sure lost. The Democratic party isn't in all that much trouble, some really bad decisions are just being made lately.

Strip away their armor...
...wash the halls in blood!

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 06:49
No 540597
      huh?

I agree, Kerry is quite the giant douche. Anyone who'd roll over and die that soon, and in that manner, well... Lieberman, Dean, or if it's your flavor, Kucinich, makes no difference. A Democrat is Democrat and so on. Aside from the blatant electoral fraud, courtsey of Republican Party USA Inc. and the extensive Republican attack machine designed to destroy the validity and credibility of anyone that it targets, and forgetting for the moment that this was indeed the most critical event in this historical epoch, you would still call conceding the most deeply and broadly contested election in modern history, "Not that much trouble.."? And you'd adhere to the credo that it's just those bad decisions of late that plague the non-Bushies? No offense or anything, but what the fuck planet have you been living on?

xMOJOx shocked

To each his own signature. Et Cetera.

buz
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 14:34
No 540644
      doing more and better nothing:

doing nothing is much more potent than we may suspect.
the problem with the u.s. is mostly a problem of doing too much of something.
doing nothing is something worth doing on a massive scale..like a boycott of almost everything.

violence begets more violence.
advertisements beget more shopping.

it may bee time to do nothing in a more serious, organized way.
we should have boycotted the fucking vote, as the asshole cbp suggested.
bush would have still won, but it would have seemed less legit.
yet, doing nothing seems so contrary to our americanness.

let's dance and take drugs for 2 months; then check back and see if the world got better or worse.

squeamish
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 15:15
No 540651
User Picture       [...makes no difference.

[...makes no difference. A Democrat is Democrat and so on.]
If you believe that then I guess you truly are on another planet than I.

Strip away their armor...
...wash the halls in blood!

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 15:45
No 540655
User Picture       who's the douchebag?

If Liebermann or Dean had won the Democratic nomination then Bush would have almost for sure lost.

You have zero grip on american politics if you believe that statement.
Neither candidate had any chance of winning an election against GWB.
Dean because he has zero foreign policy and national defence experience (besides the raving liberal label). The Bushies were salivating at the thought of a Dean nomination. Rove would have had him for lunch.
And Lieberman because his religion would have mobilized an already rabid christian base. Don't ever underestimate the bible thumpers. Besides he was far too moderate to mobilize the liberal dem base as well. The repubs would have made his religion an issue regarding the arab/islamic threat and his obviously unwavering (and wrong) support of israel.

Nope neither of those choices would have made it.

And before you open your gob - I don't think Kerry was a great candidate either. But his campiagn should have been run differently. GOP values need to be re-framed from a democratic/liberal point of veiw just like they did to us.

I don't have all the answers, more questions actually. But I do know Lieberman was not the man for the job.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
11-10-04 02:42
No 540732
      Almost anybody nominated by the democrats who...

Almost anybody nominated by the democrats who would have been able to present a positive, constructive concept for the future would have won the election against GWB.
Hillary Clinton is right when she believes that after four more years of GWB also a woman presenting such a concept will win the election.

The point is that there came no such concept with Kerry whats no wonder, one Skulls&Bones member is always nearer to another member in thinking than to anybody else.
Hillary has a good driving force behind her, becoming the first female president of the USA is a thing to be, more than the plain power of the office. And its a task too, the first female president hoped not just to repeat the politics of their male predecessors and she will do so. Some fresh wind is more than needed, and I so I hope Hillary will succeed, although I would prefer to see a anarchist revolution happening or - more realistic - the canadians invading and burning down the capitol again wink

I cant spell, I bad look, the only thing about me is I know how to cook......

Xaja
(Hive Bee)
11-10-04 02:57
No 540734
User Picture       Female or black President?

Surely one or the other must happen soon??

I'm putting money on Hillary... smile

**FriedPiper**

I love BUSH! The pussy, not the President!!

psychokitty
(«»)
11-10-04 03:34
No 540737
      Location?

OVER 55 MILLION PEOPLE VOTED FOR THE DEMOCRATS, GET 1 MILLION PEOPLE TO BLOCKADE BUSHES INAUGARATION ON THE 20TH OF JANUARY 2005, AND CREATE CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. DEMAND THE RETURN OF THE SOLDIERS AND THE REINSTITUTION OF RIGHTS.

This is a good idea. Seriously. But this time around, where exactly will Bush's inauguration take place? The last time, in 2000, it was severely hampered by civil protest. I saw footage of this in Farenheit 9/11.

I too am putting my money and vote on Hillary. But if Oprah runs, she could win . . .

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-10-04 03:48
No 540739
User Picture       wrong wrong wrong

Almost anybody nominated by the democrats who would have been able to present a positive, constructive concept for the future would have won the election against GWB.

You know, I like the fact that you people take an interest in our politics, but don't pretend to know something that you fail to understand.
This was an election about the fucked up reality that is the american electorate.
These people were given a clear choice about a leader, in spite of what you may think you know and they went with their moral values (their words not mine).
They went with the idea of exclusion (gays), it was the driving force to get most of them to the polls.
It wasn't the only issue by far, but it was a big one as well as the idea of Kerry's inconsistencies.
There was so much misinformation and misrepresentation by the GOP'ers that the real issues were lost and forgotten in the storm of negative campaigning.
You statement is a moot point because, due to the atmosphere of the campaign, a real positive constructive concept would have been buried in the mess of that campaign.

And let's not forget all those complacent fucks some of us are so fond of. I don't think the choices could have been more clear and pronounced in this campaign. The differences between Bush and Kerry were marked and obvious. I think middle america is put off by people more intelligent than them. Personally, I want the smartest mother fucker possible running this country, but alas...that is not to be.
   I think the idea of this elusive, undecided voter was total bullshit. I just think too many of these fucks were too embarrassed to really say who they were voting for in the polls.

Hillary Clinton is right when she believes that after four more years of GWB also a woman presenting such a concept will win the election.

Show me where she has said this.
I need to see more from her before I would make a decision on whether to support her or not.

more realistic - the canadians invading and burning down the capitol again

Again smarty - show me when they did this the first time...

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-10-04 04:29
No 540743
User Picture       He's right

I agree with KOS. They were voting for Bush and it wouldn't have mattered who was running against him. It is pretty easy for everyone to point a finger at Kerry and what he did or did not do. The guy fought hard and was up against this administration that has proven time and time again that NOTHING is going to stand in their way, especially the truth. Kerry wasn't willing to lower himself to their level and was too open and honest in his beliefs, that's all.

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

squeamish
(Hive Bee)
11-10-04 07:25
No 540769
User Picture       Re: And Lieberman because his religion would...

And Lieberman because his religion would have mobilized an already rabid christian base. Don't ever underestimate the bible thumpers. Besides he was far too moderate to mobilize the liberal dem base as well. The repubs would have made his religion an issue regarding the arab/islamic threat and his obviously unwavering (and wrong) support of israel.

Apparently you're the one who has "zero grip" on American politics, because what you've said here makes absolutely no sense. The very reason Kerry lost is that he wasn't moderate enough. Do you know why Bush got more votes than any other American politician in history? It's not because people especially like him(in fact, I don't know anybody who likes him), but because there was just no one else to turn to. Third parties played a negligible role in this election, so I doubt Liebermann would have lost any Democratic votes because he's not liberal enough. It is well known that almost no one was thrilled with either candidate--polls have shown this. The best thing each guy had going for him is that he wasn't the other guy.

And I completely fail to see how the Republicans could have turned Liebermann's support for Israel against him. If you could explain that part it would be greatly appreciated.

Strip away their armor...
...wash the halls in blood!

squeamish
(Hive Bee)
11-10-04 07:29
No 540771
User Picture       Re: "more realistic - the canadians ...

"more realistic - the canadians invading and burning down the capitol again"

Again smarty - show me when they did this the first time...
Uh... ever heard of the war of 1812?

Strip away their armor...
...wash the halls in blood!

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-10-04 07:47
No 540772
User Picture       Re: Do you know why Bush got more votes than...

Do you know why Bush got more votes than any other American politician in history?

Because more people voted. Percentage wise he didn't do very well at all. Presidential races are usually won by a 10% margin or more which is why there is never any question about who won. Bush won by 2 or 3%.

The best thing each guy had going for him is that he wasn't the other guy.

That definately true, but still didn't help Kerry. It's a lot better to not be Bush than it is to not be Kerry.

And I completely fail to see how the Republicans could have turned Liebermann's support for Israel against him. If you could explain that part it would be greatly appreciated.

They would pull the Republican Mind Trick, where they completely overlook the fact that they support Israel themselves and claim that Arab terrorism would increase as a result of having a Jewish president, and most people would buy into that.

Milk rots your brain.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-10-04 07:50
No 540776
User Picture       They would pull the Republican Mind Trick,...

They would pull the Republican Mind Trick, where they completely overlook the fact that they support Israel themselves and claim that Arab terrorism would increase as a result of having a Jewish president, and most people would buy into that.

Very perceptive Nob..........there's hope for you, yet.

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-10-04 08:16
No 540784
User Picture       Unrivaled Security Planned for Inauguration...

Unrivaled Security Planned for Inauguration

Military Muscle, High-Tech Screening Are Features of First Swearing In Since 9/11

Washington Post | November 7, 2004
By Sari Horwitz and Spencer S. Hsu

An unprecedented level of security will frame President Bush's second inauguration, with officials planning to use thousands of police from across the country, new screening technology for inaugural guests and a military contingent that could include a combat brigade of up to 4,000 troops.

Security is always tight on Inauguration Day, but it will be magnified for the first inauguration since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Law enforcement officials have been preparing for months to protect U.S. and world leaders and citizens who attend. EDIT - WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT, THEY ARE PROTECTING THAT CRETIN FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!

Organizers are planning a traditional inauguration capped by a parade down Pennsylvania Avenue and the usual evening balls. Bush has yet to name his inauguration committee, which will oversee planning of the pageantry and festivities, but law enforcement agencies are in high gear.

As tens of thousands of people come to Washington to watch the Jan. 20 swearing in, the city will be filled with military personnel, FBI agents in full SWAT outfitting, snipers on rooftops and scores of bomb-detecting dogs. The region's air defenses have been strengthened to prevent intruder aircraft, and sensors will be deployed throughout the area to detect biological, chemical or radiological material.

About 2,000 out-of-town officers will help with security and traffic details. Undercover officers will work the crowds, and D.C. police officers will be posted every six to eight feet along the parade route.

Plans call for sturdier barriers and more checkpoints and metal detectors along the parade route than in previous years. Officials also are setting up a higher-security ticketing and credentialing system for some events, to prevent people from using counterfeit materials to get into the balls and more restricted areas.

"There will be far more security and more police than four years ago," said Terrance W. Gainer, chief of the U.S. Capitol Police, the agency charged with protecting the Capitol, where Bush will be sworn in. "Everything has changed since 9/11, so there is a different context in which this inauguration is being planned."

Law enforcement authorities do not have specific information that al Qaeda or another terrorist group is targeting the inauguration. But the events will attract political leaders from throughout the country and the world and will be staged outside symbols of American democracy, officials said.

"The inaugural is a rich, symbolic, highly visible target," said Jim Rice, the FBI supervisory special agent who overseas the National Capital Response Squad. Rice's squad works closely with the Joint Terrorism Task Force in the FBI's Washington field office to monitor and respond to terrorist threats.

This will be the first inauguration since creation of the Homeland Security Department, which also is a central part of the security planning.

The Secret Service is the lead agency for the inauguration because the ceremony and celebrations are considered a National Special Security Event, a designation that brings with it heightened federal planning and resources.

Officials said the inauguration will be the culmination of a series of high-security events, including the summer political conventions, the Sea Island, Ga., summit of leaders from industrialized nations in June and the funeral in Washington that month of former president Ronald Reagan.

In Northern Virginia, a temporary joint command center is being set up in a federal facility. It will include representatives from other law enforcement agencies, including the D.C. police department, U.S. Park Police, Capitol Police and the FBI.

In addition, officials said the new Joint Forces Headquarters-National Capital Region is prepared to pre-deploy 4,000 active-duty combat forces in the District -- a significant departure from past inaugurations.

The military will support civilian authorities, if needed, and officials said they plan to project a much more forceful image than since at least the time of the Vietnam War.

About 2,000 troops, including members of the 82nd Airborne Division, were flown into Washington for Richard M. Nixon's inauguration in 1969, and some were stationed along the parade route. The military also helped protect the parade route for Nixon's second inauguration, in 1973. In recent decades, uniformed guards have played a mostly ceremonial role and specialized response teams stayed backstage.

In addition, the Military District of Washington Engineer Company, which specializes in extracting survivors from building collapses, and the Marine Corps Chemical Biological Incident Response Force will be on alert in the area.

A maritime security force led by the Coast Guard will include FBI and Department of Energy personnel on boats in the Potomac and Anacostia rivers to guard approaches to the city. Similar details were in place for Reagan's funeral.

"The major message is we are a hard target. We're not just sitting and waiting for something to happen," said Army Maj. Gen. Galen B. Jackman, commanding general of Joint Forces Headquarters-National Capital Region and the Military District of Washington.

For months, units in the command have conducted exercises to prepare for the inauguration, mapping staging areas, routes to rescue sites and emergency procedures from its Fort McNair headquarters. The exercises have contemplated a wide range of potential terrorist incidents, including suicide bombs, truck bombs and chemical releases.

"We will respond with the capabilities necessary to accomplish the mission," said Navy Rear Adm. Jan Gaudio, Jackman's deputy commander.

Authorities are building upon other security measures that have been employed for recent inaugurations. These steps have included inspecting miles of underground Metro and sewer tunnels, sealing manhole covers, closing streets and surveying the more than 450 downtown buildings with at least a partial view of the parade route.

D.C. police officials said they have requested help from scores of police departments east of the Mississippi River. Police Chief Charles H. Ramsey said he expects to need 1,600 to 2,500 officers from other jurisdictions.

In 2001, about 1,200 officers from other area departments helped secure the inauguration and balls, D.C. police officials said. At the time, police were mostly concerned about containing angry demonstrators who were protesting the results of the contested 2000 election. Police reported a few arrests and some vandalism.

Demonstrations are likely to be a concern of police this time. Organizers said they will bring thousands into the city again to protest Bush's second inauguration.

International ANSWER, the antiwar, anti-racism coalition that has sponsored some of Washington's biggest demonstrations against the war in Iraq, has been planning a counter-inauguration rally for months.

Another antiwar coalition, United for Peace and Justice, which organized a massive demonstration outside the Republican National Convention in New York in August, is discussing possible actions in Washington and elsewhere. The purpose, spokesman Bill Dobbs said, would be "to keep the heat on the Bush administration about the occupation of Iraq."

Ramsey said police expect the inaugural parade to follow its traditional route and pass a reviewing stand along Pennsylvania Avenue NW on the north side of the White House. That portion of the street has been closed to vehicle traffic since 1995, and planners said they expect security and design work to be completed in time for Bush's swearing in.

Officials said that none of the security measures is meant to keep people from attending the parade or other events.

"Our goal is to provide as safe an environment as possible, so America can enjoy one of its greatest celebrations, which is the inaugural celebration for the president of the United States," said Homeland Security Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse.

ATTENTION U.S. BEES (AND, IN PARTICULAR, STRAIGHTEDGE) A.N.S.W.E.R. CAN BE CONTACTED HERE:

http://www.answerla.org/contact/index.htm

SPREAD THE WORD!

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-10-04 08:17
No 540785
User Picture       what election were you following?

The very reason Kerry lost is that he wasn't moderate enough.

Kerry was painted as a liberal but in essence he was far from it. He did everything in his power to keep out of that category and NEVER embraced the liberal label. I feel he never inspired the liberal voting public at all. I know I never got excited about his candidacy, not like how Bill Clinton electrified me 12 yrs ago.
Lieberman was even more of a centrist than Kerry and would have generated an even more abysmal reponse from the left.
It goes to the very root of the two party system. They have become pale images of one another with very few differences outside of gay rights, gun control and abortion, and even those were purposely blurred by Kerry.
The deciding factor has become who votes the loudest, it's not issues - it's money and votes. you can be sure that in the next election (midterm legislative) you will find the democratic message even more blurred by their attempts to steal votes from the christian right.
If Leiberman had any chance he would have performed in the primaries - he was never really widely regarded as a likely candidate because of it. He just isn't inspiring and is quite the fucking bore on the stump. You gotta perform too not just stand for something.

Third parties played a negligible role in this election, so I doubt Liebermann would have lost any Democratic votes because he's not liberal enough

The problem as it is was that no candidate obviously inspired the liberal voting public. They were out there, registered but never came to the polls. He wouldn't have gained any votes either. You have no point to make because if he was a viable candidate he would have earned the nomination - period.
Out of all the potential democratic nominees, how could you pick a dog like Leiberman?
Clark would have been a stronger choice in my view but it doesn't matter because the bottom line is that Karl Rove brought his fucking "A" GAME and played for keeps. He was gonna take down who ever the dems nominated, he was out for blood and a second term.
I would have thought that these dems would have learned from Lee Atwater that the republicans take no prisoners when they play this game. But they campaigned like pussies (sorry Jade). The stakes were high and there are no rules only the final results matter.
This is the price we pay for a clean campaign - 4 more yrs of his bullshit and the yoke begins to tighten already. I hear rumblings about a possible run again for a definition of marriage act. Next steps are pink triangles and yellow stars.

And I completely fail to see how the Republicans could have turned Liebermann's support for Israel against him. If you could explain that part it would be greatly appreciated.

Sometimes you scientists are too fucking literal and you miss the subtle nuance of politics.
Ok, here goes...(and keeping in mind this is purely speculation btw)
National security is the main focus with islamic fundamentalism being the Bushies big boogey man(terruhrists).
They oppose our support for Isreal and use that (with good reason I might add) as their reason for spilling american blood.
The Bushies could/would have claimed that his (Leiberman's) unwavering support for the jewish state would provoke more terrorist action and put american lives at risk.

Again, this is all speculation but I never put anything past GWB and his brain Karl Rove. They would have found inconsistencies with Leiberman's voting record and portrayed his votes on defence issues in the same way they did to Kerry.
They were gonna do this ass-fuck to who ever was the democratic nominee. Look how they screwed up Max Cleland in his last re-elcetion bid a few yrs back, made him look like "unpatriotic", the guy is a triple amputee war hero (not my words - so don't give me your anti-war flames).
Rove took his candidate's weaknesses (stubborness, bad policy decisions) and made them his strengths (resolute, consistency) and he took his opponents strengths (war record, intelligence) and made them his weaknesses (shady war record, aloof) - it was fucking brilliant actually, too bad he doesn't work for the good guys and got a fucking degenerate loser elected.

Uh... ever heard of the war of 1812?

That was the english you dumbass, not canada.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-10-04 08:26
No 540787
User Picture       Why Kerry Lost

1) He speaks academically correct english. This caused many to think that he might be subtlely impying that they are stupid.

2. The ways in which he criticized Bush (although generally quite accurate) was the direct equivalent of booing a participant of the special olympics.
s.

can't flush this

StraightEdge
(Hive Addict)
11-10-04 09:39
No 540794
      I might actually go to the protests, since I...

I may actually go to the protests, since I will be in the area around that time. Not so much because I care about the cause- it’s more in the hope that I will be able to point myself out to friends and relatives in the sequel to Fahrenheit 9/11, which could very well use footage from the inauguration.

buz
(Hive Bee)
11-10-04 14:56
No 540830
      hillary?

hillary was in favor of the pre-emptive strike.
its amazing that conservatives have managed to look like liberals.

it makes me ill that we (evidently) re-elected gwb, but i doubt that electing kerry would have made any difference at all..except in various 'non-issues' of the emotional sort...like gay marriage; abortion; weapons bans; etc.

we don't have 2 parties anymore, in the u.s.
we have a millionaire white boy's club.

the appearance of freedom of choice is pretty heady stuff.
it makes us proud.

and stupid

squeamish
(Hive Bee)
11-10-04 15:17
No 540835
User Picture       kingsofsleep, you're wrong.

kingsofsleep, you're wrong. Bill Clinton was more centrist than Kerry. He probably would have done a better job of distancing himself from Moore and other anti-Bush celebrities, and not ostracized independents so much.

Concerning your comment that if Lieberman was so good then he would have been nominated over Kerry, that's just not true. The primary system is more broken than anything else in the American electoral system. Kerry was essentially chosen by a very very small group of people. Prior to the primaries most public support was with Howard Dean.

Strip away their armor...
...wash the halls in blood!

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-10-04 17:12
No 540850
User Picture       as predicted

Bush is going to pack the cabinet with minorities. First up is the replacement for Ashcroft.

Gonzales to Succeed Ashcroft, Sources Say

By SCOTT LINDLAW, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) has chosen White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, a Texas confidant and one of the most prominent Hispanics in the administration, to succeed Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites), sources close to the White House said Wednesday.

Ashcroft announced his resignation on Tuesday, along with Commerce Secretary Don Evans, a Texas friend of the president's.

After a National Security Council meeting, Bush was sitting down Wednesday with Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites), another figure being closely watched for signs of whether he will stay or go. Powell has been largely noncommital when asked about his plans.

Gonzales, 49, has long been rumored as a leading candidate for a Supreme Court vacancy if one develops. Speculation increased after Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist announced he has thyroid cancer.

Gonzales' career has been linked with Bush for at least a decade, serving as general counsel when Bush was governor of Texas, and then as secretary of state and as a justice on the Texas Supreme Court.

Gonzales has been at the center of developing Bush's positions on balancing civil liberties with waging the war on terrorism — opening the White House counsel to the same line of criticism that has dogged Ashcroft.

For instance, Gonzales publicly defended the administration's policy — essentially repudiated by the Supreme Court and now being fought out in the lower courts — of detaining certain terrorism suspects for extended periods without access to lawyers or courts.

He also wrote a controversial February 2002 memo in which Bush claimed the right to waive anti-torture law and international treaties providing protections to prisoners of war. That position drew fire from human rights groups, which said it helped led to the type of abuses uncovered in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.

Some conservatives also have quietly questioned Gonzales' credentials on core social issues. And he once was a partner in a Houston law firm which represented the scandal-ridden energy giant Enron.

And you thought getting rid of Ashcroft was a good thing? This guy wants to give Bush the power to torture people.

Milk rots your brain.

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-10-04 19:55
No 540891
User Picture       no you are wrong

Bill Clinton was more centrist than Kerry

So what's your point?
I never claimed he wasn't.
So tell me how I can be wrong.

Coming out of 12 yrs of Reagan/Bush conservatism he was considered liberal for that time. His actual term prover otherwise as he moved very close to center - but he ran a populist, liberal campaign in 92.
How a candidate is percieved and what their actual platform is can often be 2 very different things.
All I was saying is that he electrified/excited the democratic base - liberals included.
For the record I don't think there are any true liberals in the democratic party besides Dennis Kucinich.

Concerning your comment that if Lieberman was so good then he would have been nominated over Kerry, that's just not true.

Yes it is.
All the candidates know who they have to attract to win in the primaries. Leiberman knew, he couldn't even muster up the jewish vote to win in new york or florida.
He was lame duck candidate to begin with, a by-product of a bad decision by Al Gore in 2000. He was included by association in the group of possibles and he never even came close to breaking free of the pack - hell, Gore didn't even endorse him.

If you are so hot on Lieberman - tell me what he stood for.
Tell me what Joe Leiberman was all about.

Prior to the primaries most public support was with Howard Dean.

A good reason to NEVER count on the youth vote. Those bastards will leave you standing at the altar every time.
The name of the game is to get people to the polls - it's that simple. Public attention, media attention doesn't count for shit if you can't attract the voters.

Leiberman couldn't even do that on a small scale for the primaries. Broke or not, it's what we had at the time and if you couldn't work within the existing system then tough, you weren't going to get elected.
Hence - Leiberman is unelectable as president.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Stalin
(Stranger)
11-10-04 22:54
No 540926
User Picture       The Story of Uncle Joe

Osmium wrote: What happened? That once worked in the US too. When did you forget how to do that? When the supersized menues were introduced? (Post 540506 (Osmium: "Sheesh, you people need a written script to...", The Couch))

Haaaaaaaa…. The memories… deeply painful memories…

That was a very interesting question, though not much attention has been given to it. Some knowledge about American history is necessary to understand the answer on this question, and I’m afraid this is not the case for most US citizens. Reason: they have been lied at for years, even decades, about the true intentions of their Government, a “democratically” (s)elected club of oligarchs representing the nation’s Power Elite.

Ever since its existence, the US has been a nation driven by a hunger for economic supremacy, often in the benefit of a happy few. Soon after completion of Manifest Destiny, the Eagle’s eye fell on adjacent profitable territories. You may want to look for information regarding the history of Hawaii, Latin America (especially the Caribbean Sea area) and the Philippines in case you’d be interested. A short resume can be found here: http://www.addictedtowar.com/ (buy this book – the authors are worth it).
World War I was a very profitable time for the US. While European colonial empires emptied their gold reserves to buy war material, the US cashed in. Initially, there was a policy of “isolationism” which was given up in 1917, the year the US joined World War I to fight the war to end all wars, to fight a war for democracy (note: this policy should be interpreted from the Power Elite’s point of view. In reality, “isolationism” is a nice word for “we can currently generate more profit by not joining the war and sell our goods at steep prices”.) At the end of World War I, much of Europe was levelled to the ground (in a literal and figurative way of speaking) and the US much richer and much more powerful. However, there was this one occasion the US didn’t like much: the birth of the USSR. Insight in the relationship between the early USSR and the US (1920s-1940s) is essential for understanding Osmium’s question.

Economy in the US after World War I was booming, but this came to a violent end in the second half of the 1920s. There was a severe overproduction and the capitalist driven economic system couldn’t take anymore. The Wall Street Crash of 1929 (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0028817.html) is one of its consequences. The 1930s, the Dirty Thirties, was the time of the Depression. Unemployment numbers were astronomical. You can have a look at some numbers here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html You can imagine this must have had severe consequences. The “problem” the US Government had to cope with was the USSR. Did the reds plan an invasion in the US? No, certainly not – but they showed the world it could be different! Even though the USSR was torn apart by decades of wars and revolutions, the population could enjoy a certain minimum level of healthcare and education, something Americans could not. The USSR inspired many Americans during the Depression, giving rise to strikes and unions. As you probably know, capitalists are highly allergic to these two… No wonder the US Government took a hostile stance towards the USSR during this period.

And suddenly, there was this little funny German guy who made no secret of it he wanted to destroy the USSR. Germany (and Italy) offered enormous economical potential for US enterprises, and good relations between Nazi Germany and many high US officials were no secret. Fordwerke and Opel are two good examples of German companies which were actually American. Henry Ford even received a very important Nazi decoration (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Henry-Ford). However, things didn’t run as the US had hoped… Instead of attacking the USSR, Hitler invaded Poland and made a deal with Stalin himself (the previous “liberation” of Austria and Czechia were no problems for the US – and neither for the UK nor France). France and the UK declared war upon Hitler, although this initially was more of a Sitzkrieg rather than a Blitzkrieg – a phony war… But Hitler also invaded France and the Benelux and declared war upon the UK. This was not according to the wishes of the US, who hoped Hitler would invade the USSR. But it’s not they really cared. American companies made quite some money in Nazi Germany…
When Hitler invaded the USSR, a difficult political situation was being created. American companies were making copious profits in Nazi Germany by assembling war material (Ethyl GmbH, American owned, made synthetic fuels necessary for the German Blitzkrieg), other (and the same who also traded with Germany) American companies participated in the Lend-Lease system with the UK, and yet other companies traded with the USSR. A majority of the Power Elite had interests in Nazi Germany, which is why the US did not participate in World War II until December 1941 (after Germany declared war upon the US, which they did after the US tricked Japan into declaring war upon them). But just as in World War I, the American economy started booming again. Just look here:

Unemployment numbers: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html
Personal income: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104547.html

Unemployment disappeared and wages tripled in a decade! Did the income increase by the benevolence of the employers? Hell no! World War II was a very socially active period in American history. There was a shortage on the labour market, so people knew they had power. Years before, strikers could be put on the streets and replaced by any of the millions of jobless. These strikes caused an increase of the average American income and welfare, and people were dreaming of a welfare state at the end of the war (inspired by the USSR).

However, there was a war going on and the US made a coalition with the UK and the USSR. It would be more correct to say that the US made an alliance with the UK alone. The USSR just happened to be there… It was no secret that Churchill and Roosevelt were hoping Nazi Germany and the USSR would fight each other to the bitter end. Here is a good example of how much the UK/US wanted to help the USSR, and how much they cared about freeing occupied Europe from Nazi Germany. Stalin hoped the UK/US would open a front in the West so his Red Army could recuperate. The UK/US realized that opening a new front in France/Belgium would increase Russia’s chances for survival and would lead to a fast end of the war. For that reason, they invaded…. Italy!

This invasion was unnecessary and unsuccessful (look where they ended in 1945). Furthermore, what kind of military genius would decide to march to Berlin starting from Sicily… Also, to show Stalin it was impossible to invade France, the UK/US sent a few thousand Canadians to Dieppe, where they were massacred (http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Text/dieppe.html) (Canadians were popular cannon fodder).

However, Stalin’s Red Army became successful and recovered from Hitler’s Blitzkrieg. When it became obvious the Russians were going to take Berlin, the UK/US opened a front in the West (D-Day) in an attempt to arrive in Berlin before the Russians.

Near the end of the war, the UK/US showed Stalin its military supremacy by bombing Dresden, and a bit later also Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The atomic bombs were dropped to:
Force Japan to surrender
Keep Russia out of the war with Japan (Stalin declared war upon Japan in 1945)
To submit Russia to the US’s demands regarding Europe

Stalin had made a few demands but Washington (president Truman) denied these wishes (which, by the way, where not unreasonable). Washington hoped Stalin would comply, but he did not. The US considered this as “hostility”. So, at the end of World War II, the USSR was demonized as the new enemy of the US. This had many important consequences: everything associated with communist Russia – strikes, unions, healthcare, etc – were declared antipatriotic, to the greater benefit of the corporations. Radicals and union leaders were even prosecuted for treason. Also, the Pentagon Complex (tax money being funnelled to the big corporations through Pentagon orders) proved to be a very efficient way to keep the economy booming after World War II as well.

Ever since, social activism is considered treason – communist! And why is it treason? Because the communists will invade the US? Because the communists have a secret alliance with the Martians? Or is it because communism – actually any form of socialism – is a direct threat to the profit of corporations, which make part of the Power Elite, and as such have an influence on the US Government? You strike? Unpatriotic! You demand healthcare? Treason!

And they keep on brainwashing the US society. You can see how disgusting this capitalist system is by keeping an eye on the stock markets. Higher unemployment usually will give higher profits: more labour force available on the employment market means you can make him do more for less money.

Not in America it won't. Protesting the US government is about as effective as arguing with a fundementalist christain

You are wrong. It helps everywhere. Not knowing and not protesting is not a crime. Knowing and doing nothing is.

But I guess it’s not easy. But it never is…

-+- Александр Бородин -+-

Lenin
(Stranger)
11-10-04 23:06
No 540929
User Picture       USA Liberation

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-11-04 02:42
No 540954
      FUCK

Look, Kerry won the the fucking election. Bush and his cronies (Deibold) stole it again. Look at the vote count in Fl and OH, all the irregularities, fuck black box voting ,noone can recount beacause there is nothing to count, just numbers on a screen. Damn cant you all see the writing on the wall. Our last 2 presidential elections have been FRAUDS!!! There is no Democracy in the USA. They needed to steal this one because of all the bad shit coming next year and to hide all the DIRTY shit they have been doing.

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-11-04 03:34
No 540961
User Picture       Your right

just kidding,

Kerry did not win the election, ask Kerry he will tell you himself.

It's time to come out of denial, you are one of the few that are left in the haze of denial. It's OK, that kind of thinking will fuck everything up yet again in '08. Open your eyes and take a look at AMERICA, no not the microcosm that you live in and happen to think is representitive of the rest of the country. This is the democrats biggest problem they are so self absorbed to the point that they can not fathom that anyone else could ever think about thinking in any other way but the way that they think. This of course is not the way most americans think. So again I tell you to go back to the drawing board, and Drop your Michael Moores, and far left propaganda pushers, they are only destroying the democratic party. Use your brains y'all have to be smarter than a bunch of jesus freaks, maybe that is your problem, regroup and try again in four years.

Until then,

Keep dreamin'

m_e

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

hexagonium
(Newbee)
11-11-04 04:47
No 540966
      Exit polls were sabotaged

Title: Those faulty exit polls were sabotage
Source: The Hill
URL Source: http://www.thehill.com/morris/110404.aspx
Published: Nov 4, 2004
Author: Dick Morris
Post Date: 2004-11-04 15:04:46 by dread
53 Comments

By now it is well-known and a part of the 2004 election lore how the exit polls by the major television networks were wrong.

Likely this faux pas will assume its place among wartime stories alongside the mistaken calls on Florida’s vote for one side and then for the other in the 2000 election. But the inaccuracies of the media’s polling deserve more scrutiny and investigation.

Exit polls are almost never wrong. They eliminate the two major potential fallacies in survey research by correctly separating actual voters from those who pretend they will cast ballots but never do and by substituting actual observation for guesswork in judging the relative turnout of different parts of the state.

So reliable are the surveys that actually tap voters as they leave the polling places that they are used as guides to the relative honesty of elections in Third World countries. When I worked on Vicente Fox’s campaign in Mexico, for example, I was so fearful that the governing PRI would steal the election that I had the campaign commission two U.S. firms to conduct exit polls to be released immediately after the polls closed to foreclose the possibility of finagling with the returns. When the polls announced a seven-point Fox victory, mobs thronged the streets in a joyous celebration within minutes that made fraud in the actual counting impossible.

But this Tuesday, the networks did get the exit polls wrong. Not just some of them. They got all of the Bush states wrong. So, according to ABC-TV’s exit polls, for example, Kerry was slated to carry Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada and Iowa, all of which Bush carried. The only swing state the network had going to Bush was West Virginia, which the president won by 10 points.

To screw up one exit poll is unheard of. To miss six of them is incredible. It boggles the imagination how pollsters could be that incompetent and invites speculation that more than honest error was at play here.

The mistaken exit polls infiltrated all three networks and the cable news outlets and had a chilling effect on the coverage of election night.

While all anchors refrained from announcing the exit-poll results, it was clear from the context of their comments that they expected Kerry to win and wondered if Bush could hold any key state.

Indeed, one network hesitated to call Mississippi for Bush because of the uncertainty injected by the bogus exit polls. Dark minds will suspect that these polls were deliberately manipulated to dampen Bush turnout in the Central, Mountain, and Pacific time zones by conveying the impression that the president’s candidacy was a lost cause.

The exit pollsters plead that they oversampled women and that this led to their mistakes. But the very first thing a pollster does is weight or quota for gender. Once the female vote reaches 52 percent of the sample, one either refuses additional female respondents or weights down the ones one subsequently counted.

This is, dear Watson, elementary.

Next to the forged documents that sent CBS on a jihad against Bush’s National Guard service and the planned “60 Minutes” ambush over the so-called missing explosives two days before the polls opened, the possibility of biased exit polling, deliberately manipulated to try to chill the Bush turnout, must be seriously considered.

At the very least, the exit pollsters should have to explain, in public, how they were so wrong. Since their polls, if biased or cooked, represented an attempt to use the public airwaves to reduce voter turnout, they should have to explain their errors in a very public and perhaps official forum.

This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play.

http://www.libertypost.org

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-11-04 05:06
No 540968
User Picture       they can

Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night.

They can when you are polling the wrong sample. In florida, in the early part of the election 60% of all voters polled were women, Broward County (the Dems strongest county) was almost entirely in and Kerry was only up 1-2%. George Bush had plenty of room to bounce.
The exit polls were flawed...

Keep that conspiracy shit, we lost the election. Whatever fraud that may or may not have happened will only be conjecture at this point and a waste of time. Kerry conceded, remember?

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-11-04 05:14
No 540970
User Picture       Don't forget Chaim Weizmann

Stalin, excellent article.

_{Although probably wasted in here.}

PROTEST THE INAUGARATION!
http://www.answerla.org/contact/index.htm

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-11-04 06:42
No 540976
      Thats the point

See they know people will just accept the election results, and go on about their day. Thats how and why they can do it.I look for evidence to prove any theory, and when lost I look to Ockham's razor. And in this case I can only conclude that a grand conspiracy has taken place. You have come to your own conclusion as I have my own. But please do not tell me to get over it or move one. Its quite hard to do when you see your democracy being stolen! Dont follow the party line educate yourself. The evidence is out there, read. We can't all be crazy.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4175
http://home.deds.nl/~vlo/postings/2003/diebold.html
http://blackboxvoting.org/

http://www.theinternationalforecaster.com/trainwreck.php?Id=52&PHPSESSID=257040616ef700f5b71f1fad4d07e9b8
The new US $20 bill, the new Canadian $20 bill and the new euros all contain RFID chips. You can put them in the microwave and see the chips fry. This is just another phase of Patriot Acts I and II and the formation of the Department of Fatherland Security. Now we have new legislation for the de-facto national ID that was passed, which will probably include chips for fingerprints and biometric data. Included in the proposed measure is legislation rendering foreigners to be detained without charges and tortured. If passed, we are next.

It may interest you to know that the biggest industry in the world is that of producing weapons of war. In the US, the Carlyle Group is the biggest weapons supplier and Halliburton is the biggest facilitator. As we explained long before Afghanistan and Iraq began that perpetual war for perpetual peace is used as a cover for economic failure. It brings massive profits to arms merchants and this case the control of foreign oil and the geopolitical outflanking of Russia and China in the region. We find the reasons for war WMD and Iraqi complicity with terrorists never existed, thus the cause for war was a ruse for profit and power. Americans being, trusting souls and loving their country have sent their sons and daughters to die in the cause of elitist profit and power. Their reward is their child in a body bag. Our system no longer works for Americans, only for the elite. They lie, our politicians lie, our religious leaders lie and our media lies. The time to change that will soon be upon us. Prepare yourself – we will all be needed.

The bag of hammers has been re-elected; he has the intellect of a supermarket clerk. The American public is dumb, and they are simply morons. George’s reelection has to have many people depressed. There is an upside, though gold and silver are going to go through the roof. The reaction worldwide is universal disgust. The public has accepted a war mongering moron and will sacrifice their children rather than challenge this swine. This is the same meathead who says he will cut the deficit in half. He does not tell them though that is accomplished by increasing taxes and stopping the war. Of course, he will do neither.

As we mentioned in the last issue George and the neocons are seeking another $70 billion in emergency funding for Iraq and Afghanistan next year. That will push total official war costs to $225 billion since the invasion in 3/03. The stark fact is the US cannot afford this war in the Middle East and it is only a matter of time before either the dollar tanks or Treasury bond yields explode or both. We are fast reaching an impasse with our foreign lenders and Americans are reaching a point in our political economy where producers within our society can no longer carry the burden in the form of direct taxation. Those factors spell breakdown. Demand or command managements are both unworkable and totalitarian. This leads us to an unavoidable storm that is headed our way. The debt is overwhelming and as the economy slows, Asia will slow and their ability to continue to fund US debt at these levels is debatable. Washington and Wall Street say growth is driven by consumption, which is essentially ridiculous when that consumption is the result of ever-greater debt, which, means that the seed corn has been eaten. What does a nation do when they cannot borrow anymore? They starve, of course, or have a depression. The current government debt is shortly going to $8.1 trillion, whereas the overall debt commitment is $82 trillion. Our current account deficit is closing in on 6% of GDP, or over $660 billion. Fiscal defects are close to $450 billion a year and if you add in the misappropriated Social Security, Medicare and Pension funds the deficit is over $700 billion. The foreign lenders at present are slowing the inflow of funds into the US. We expect that to accelerate as the dollar continues its decent. The Fed has been holding the economy with gum, bailing wire, money and credit and they cannot do that indefinitely.

George and the neocons may believe they have a mandate but they face great risks in the coming four years. Never before have financial markets played such a control role in society. Investors are into the mortgage and housing markets and more have their retirement tied to the stock and bond markets. Real estate values are paramount. Sustainable economic recovery is based upon the aggressive creation of fiat money and credit, which has resulted in a credit bubble that will break over the next 18 months. When it does 70% of assets will be wiped out. We are facing monetary disorder and increasingly unstable markets. That is why the Working Group on Financial Markets, (The Plunge Protection Team) and the Fed are in all world markets 24-hours a day manipulating them. They are trying to keep the whole edifice from collapsing. The public is aware that inflation is not 2 1/2%, but that it is much higher. They know government lies about everything. At least 50% of the population has no faith left in government, the judicial system nor big business. The BIS, IMF, World Bank and international politicians will become more and more vocal critics of US budget and trade deficits. Alan Greenspan says he will inflate and save the system, he knows that does not work. We are headed for hyperinflation irrespective. The cycle has already been unleashed and the result will be a collapsing financial and economic system. Foreigners are not going to stand by and allow another 30% loss of assets. That means interest rates must rise and that means the real estate and bond bubbles are about to be broken in this process as well. George and the neocons, Congress, our judiciary, Wall Street and big business know exactly what is going on. This is not refusing to accept reality, because this is planned to bring about the great leveling, second world status for the US, and the forced acceptance of world government. We are ill prepared and polarized, but that is the way the elitists want us to be. It allows quicker acceptance of slavery.

"YOU CAN HANDLE THE TRUTH" JACK NICKOLSON

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-11-04 07:48
No 540984
      puh-leeze.

> So again I tell you to go back to the drawing board, and Drop your Michael
> Moores, and far left propaganda pushers

don't use words like "far left", if you don't know what they mean. far left
is people who want to put every company under state control and expropriate
the whole owning class. i don't think any democrat comes even close to that.

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-11-04 07:54
No 540986
User Picture       > Its quite hard to do when you see your...

> Its quite hard to do when you see your democracy being stolen!

You cannot steal what doesn't exist.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

ChemoSabe
(Hive Addict)
11-11-04 10:21
No 541003
User Picture       Why Bush Won

What really motivated Bush to win the election was that he knew that if he lost that Kerry planned on sending him to Iraq to complete his national guard service.

I'm John Kerry reporting for doodie (picture Kerry saluting on toiet & impossibly huge fart sound)

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-11-04 16:03
No 541033
User Picture       listen

See they know people will just accept the election results, and go on about their day.

Because they know this particular battle is over. Do you honestly think the election results will be invalidated because of your grand conspiracy?

Thats how and why they can do it

Just who is THEY?

I look for evidence to prove any theory, and when lost I look to Ockham's razor. And in this case I can only conclude that a grand conspiracy has taken place.

Which says that the simplest explanation is always the best?
And you come up with a grand conspiracy theory of election tampering and vote fraud?
Very scientific...

You have come to your own conclusion as I have my own. But please do not tell me to get over it or move one.

Well, I am sure there is a nice street corner somewhere, there you can wear your sandwich board placards stating your "theory" and rant and rave all you want.

Its quite hard to do when you see your democracy being stolen!

It's even harder when you see it being given away by the apathetic fucks (complacent fucks to some) who were registered to vote, but didn't.

The evidence is out there, read. We can't all be crazy

Yes, yes Mulder - the evidence (truth) is out there - on the internet, where everything written must be the truth.

I have heard all this crap and as time goes by and I have time to think, I wonder what battle do you think you are going to win by promoting this theory?
What results do you expect?

Time to move on and craft a new (better) battle plan. Midterm elections are less than 2 yrs away and we need to take back some seats in the house.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-11-04 18:48
No 541058
      Not very popular

It obvious that you did not bother reading any of the web sites or even read the article that was posted.
Proof is there just open your eyes. Like I said I cant change anyones mind, and I know you can't change mine. And I wont argue for the sake of argument.

[green]
I have heard all this crap and as time goes by and I have time to think, I wonder what battle do you think you are going to win by promoting this theory?
What results do you expect?

My dear sir the battle to be won is the acknowledgment that the election was a sham. This current administration is illigitimate. I expect people to see that their world is about to change in a horrible way.Im trying to enlighten people as to what those in power are capable of and are planing and the need to prepair ourselves. If you choose not to see the truth then I hope the neocons will have mercy on you and yours, but I think not.

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH" JACK NICKOLSON

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-11-04 23:26
No 541113
      It's pointless to harp about impropriety...

Look, whether the election was stolen or not is not the point. The point is that the race was so close, as a result of the Democratic Party not energizing THEIR base (and half or so of the US being fucking retarded) that it was possible for Bush to steal the election.

If Kerry had gained the support of, oh, I dunno, say 70%+ of the voters, it would have been blatantly obvious that some nefarious plot was afoot.

Personally, I DO think that it's suspicious that virtually ALL of the 'glitches' and 'technical errors' went in Bush's favor. And after having personally examined the data on Optical Scan machines vs. Touchscreen machines (thank you CNN, Black Box Voting, and the ever-so-gracious state of Florida http://election.dos.state.fl.us/) I do think that it's odd that Bush picked up in some cases several thousands of votes over his 2000 tallies in Op-scan counties, where Kerry was getting mere hundreds of votes over Gore's 2000 counts.

It's also strange that some Op-scan counties that are 70%+ Dems registered went 70%+ in some cases for Bush. And then there's the erroneous exit-poll thing. Conspiracy? As the Magic 8-Ball says, "The signs point to yes." But PROOF of a conspiracy? Hardly.

Get me a Diebold insider or Florida or Ohio election official who's willing to tell all, and have documentation to back up his or her claims, and then I (and the mainstream everyone-else) will seriously start to listen. Until then, tough tomatoes convincing anyone who isn't of a similar political stripe as yourself.

You should have gotten righteously pissed when the electoral machine was allowed to be placed in the hands of private, partisan corporate interests. Now, there's very little that can be done, particularly a recount, because on Touchscreen machines, there's nothing to count. And don't seriously entertain the notion that a Republican legislature is going to hold a new election. A. There's no precedent that I'm aware of, not even the 1876 rigmarole. B. Duh!

We're all fucked because none of us (myself included) did what was required to safeguard our democracy when the assault began. After the 2000 Florida debacle, the signs were crystal clear, and not just in hindsight. We as a nation, even the small segment of the nation that we intelligent, relatively enlightened individuals represent, had many options for taking action, and we exercised NONE of them adequately.

I'm NOT saying, "Get over it." I AM saying that you, all of us, sorely need to adjust our tactics, redouble our efforts, and realize that for the most part, we're preaching to the choir.

shocked xMOJOx shocked

SHOCKED!!! SHOCKED I TELLS YA!

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-12-04 00:09
No 541121
User Picture       It obvious that you did not bother reading any

It obvious that you did not bother reading any of the web sites or even read the article that was posted.

Well, in a post about election fraud, I found the article you posted to something of a non sequitur.
I browsed through the web sites but to be honest, we all knew the fallibility of the voting machines months in advance. The fact that they were dysfunctional comes as no surprise.
The election was marred by improper exit polling, voter intimidation and more than likely, some bending of the system...
...but widespread, deliberate vote fraud?

I doubt it.
It's easy to blow that horn as we fucked up, plain and simple. We are looking for a scapegoat, but the bottom line is that we got outplayed.

My dear sir the battle to be won is the acknowledgment that the election was a sham

More like a joke and to the rest of the world, we are the butt of it.

Ok, say it comes out - then what?
You still aren't laying out a goal. Revolution? Regime change? Impeachment?
Do you honestly think any of this is even possible?

Any of these fucking idiots who are preaching overthrow, revolution are stupid fucks. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and I will wholeheartedly, gladly endure 4 more yrs of that ass before I endorse armed combat and another civil war. No thanks.

I expect people to see that their world is about to change in a horrible way

The way most of us see it around here is that it changed in a horrible way 4 yrs ago. You aren't telling us anything new.

If you choose not to see the truth then I hope the neocons will have mercy on you and yours, but I think not.

Yawn...

First of all, if I choose not to see the truth then I will fall in line, march in step, become a sheeple then the neocons would have mercy on me.

   If I choose to fight, then that's when I think I will have the problems. I made my choice a while ago.

Go enlighten the ignorant masses, we know what sneaky, underhanded, christian fundalmentalist bullshit he is capable of. It's time we took a page from their playbook and started playing by the same rules.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-12-04 01:07
No 541128
User Picture       Re: Get me a Diebold insider or Florida or...

Get me a Diebold insider or Florida or Ohio election official who's willing to tell all, and have documentation to back up his or her claims

There's no more compelling documentation than Deibold's own source code.

Diebold was hacked months ago and the source code for their polling system was stolen and reviewed by hundreds of hackers and idependent security firms. It was discovered that the software had a backdoor in it that allows realtime monitoring and editing of the votes as they come in. Do a search on google. It was very well covered in the media (at least on the internet) but for some reason (aka, financial contributions to the Bush administration), Diebold was still allowed to provide the polling machines.

As far as I know, Diebold refused to admit that there was a backdoor despite the fact that hundreds of programmers have seen it, and they didn't consider this to be a bug worth fixing. They were more pissed that they were hacked, which itself was reason to believe they were incompitent at providing a secure voting system.

By the way, it wasn't a bug. A bug might cause a mistake in calculating the votes correctly. A bug will not cause the software to phone home and upload results. Something like that has to be programmed in. I simple typo during programming will not cause that to happen.

It was a conflict of interests for Diebold to provide voting machines. Conspiracy or not, a company founded by a close personal friend of Bush and a contributor to his campaign should not have been let anywhere near the voting system.

Milk rots your brain.

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-12-04 01:48
No 541134
      Unob, yes!

Absolutely,

[blue]It was a conflict of interests for Diebold to provide voting machines. Conspiracy or not, a company founded by a close personal friend of Bush and a contributor to his campaign should not have been let anywhere near the voting system.[blue]

A close personal friend who was a Pioneer donor, raising at least $200,000 for the Bush campaign. And one who was, "Committted to delivering Ohio's electoral votes in 2004" Walden O'Dell CEO Diebold Election systems 2003

Why did essentially every American allow this to happen? I'm not innocent, I've known about the vote problems since the end of '01. And I sat back and did my research and pontificated and whatnot, and in the grand scheme of things, my efforts amounted to:    <--- THIS..

The only problem is that people are too goddamned uncritical when it comes to arriving at conclusions even relatively independently. Show them the code, which might as well be written in &^%/*-?{:+*(^*@%&* to them, and explain the consequences, and you'll get a blank stare.

Even a live demonstration isn't as effective as it would seem, because many Americans have an unshakeable faith in the Democratic process in general, but also the Electoral process specifically. They figure, "Well, this is just a demonstration. They'd never ACTUALLY have these flaws come election day. This is America. We don't do things like that!"

They usually seem to be your more authoritarian/submissive, occasionally Christ-charged conservative types. And I've, regretably found that there are far too many of them.

I don't think that as of yet there is concrete evidence of Electoral fraud, but I am completely willing to consider the evidence for both points of view, and take it from there. The problem is that an outrageously high standard of proof exists for any earth-shattering allegation.

Common sense will not win the day, as many people have none. You have to show them absolute, irrefutable, comprehensive, easy to understand documentation to create a serious furor. For my money, keep on dreaming.

Now, the only acceptable recourse is emigration, for I refuse, utterly refuse to remain on this patch of political real estate any longer than strictly necessary.

What a hole we progressives in this American nation have dug ourselves into... We have to find a way to stop digging, not try to dig ourselves out.

xMOJOx mad

P.S. Diebold makes ATM's also, and as we all know, ATM's ALWAYS have paper receipts. And they never, ever lose track of a single penny or baht if that's the local medium.

Just a few thoughts.

Carpe fucking diem, for tomorrow you may die.

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-12-04 02:04
No 541135
      G.O.D.

You have to show them absolute, irrefutable, comprehensive, easy to understand documentation to create a serious furor.

But people belive in GOD

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH" JACK NICKOLSON

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-12-04 02:10
No 541137
User Picture       don't use words like "far left", if...

don't use words like "far left", if you don't know what they mean. far left
is people who want to put every company under state control and expropriate
the whole owning class. i don't think any democrat comes even close to that.

The terms left and right wing are very "muddy" terms that are applied to mean a lot of things.

No-one having an "intelligent" discussion on politics would place any real value in these terms.

The terms date back to pre-revolutionary France.

In 1789, the French National Assembly was created as a parliamentary body to move control of issues, such as taxation, from the king to the citizenry.

Inside the chamber where the National Assembly met, members of the Third Estate sat on the left side and members of the First Estate sat on the right. The Third Estate consisted of revolutionaries, while the First Estate were nobles. Thus, the left wing of the room was more liberal, and the right wing was more conservative. In the next few years, the revolutionaries would take over and countless noble heads would roll, but that's another story.

"left wing" and "right wing" date to the seating arrangements of the 1789 French National Assembly.

"Right" can also mean "correct," while the Latin term for "left" suggests "sinister" behavior. We suspect that those on the political right wing appreciate these connotations more than those on the left.

Which says that the simplest explanation is always the best?

I would leave the idea of Occams Razor out, where politics are concerned.

And you come up with a grand conspiracy theory of election tampering and vote fraud? Very scientific...

Numbers are about the hardest science you can get. If you can dispute the figures in a more "scientific" manner, then go ahead.

I have heard all this crap and as time goes by and I have time to think, I wonder what battle do you think you are going to win by promoting this theory? What results do you expect?

Dissent and protest amongst the population. Sadly THEY seem to have broken your spirit KOS

Any of these fucking idiots who are preaching overthrow, revolution are stupid fucks. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and I will wholeheartedly, gladly endure 4 more yrs of that ass before I endorse armed combat and another civil war. No thanks.

KOS, you surprise me.

Just how do you think the U.S. came into being?

PROTEST THE INAUGARATION!
http://www.answerla.org/contact/index.htm

xMOJOx
(Hive Bee)
11-12-04 02:25
No 541139
      That they do, but...

God fits into many people's scheme of things, for whatever reason. It doesn't fit for me the way it does for them, and I'm guessing it doesn't quite fit for you either. But you have to understand, the belief that many people have in God is unshakeable. That is a forgone truthful intangible for some. He's up there or out there in a way that you or I simply cannot conceptualize, because he-she-it doesn't exist in that way for you or I.

My point is that for real world events, things that can be observed, the standard of conclusivity (to coin a term) is greater. Faith based things, like the existence of God, or the integrity of the Electoral process in the United States require extrodinary standards of refutation for those people.

You need something that no one can ignore, no matter how much they'd like to...

xMOJOx smile

Oy Vey! Zionism...

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-12-04 02:39
No 541143
User Picture       Re: Puh-leeze

don't use words like "far left", if you don't know what they mean. far left
is people who want to put every company under state control and expropriate
the whole owning class. i don't think any democrat comes even close to that.

Great, that is your definition of the far left, thank you for enlightening me. I assume you do not live in the US, so your opinion of far left and the american electorate's opionion of the far left is more than likely not one in the same. I do realize it is useless to even waste time disagreeing with you, as you always have the last word in any debate, and you walk away the winner even if your tail is tucked between your hind legs.

Take it from an American, the American voters, both democrat and republican view Michael Moore as THE Far Left. And as of late both parties agree that he has been a lightning rod for bad publicity to the democratic party.

Your definition of far left may be more accurate, when defined by historians, however the people that have the power to swing a vote in one direction or the other obviously do not share the same view as yourself. And these are the folks my dear that move elections.

So despite your advice, I will continue to use terms such as "far left" to describe those who's words and actions are as defined by the american electorate as Far Fucking Left.

much_love

methyl_ethyl

(farleftneodem)

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-12-04 04:26
No 541154
      creation vs evolution

You need something that no one can ignore, no matter how much they'd like to...

My point is no matter how much evidence you have some people, alot of people, will never belive you. Take KOS for instance there is a ton of proof that this election was rigged but does he belive it, no! He would rather go on about how the better man won, or some such nonsense. That goes to show you can lead a horse to water but you can'take him drink, or you can give a sick man a pill but you can't make him sawllow.

wareami
(Hive Addict)
11-12-04 04:52
No 541158
User Picture       Hot Damn!!!!

Guess Who's cumming for dinner???

ROTFLMFAO, I could just see all the bees here at the Hive seated at the dining room table discussing "How was your day, Honey?"!

And other important facts of life such as:

"Some people think you cannot break a dog that has got in the habit of killin' chickens, but my friend John Henry always claimed you could. He said the way to do it is to take one of the chickens the dog has killed and wire the thing around the dog's neck, good and strong. And leave it there until that dead chicken stinks so bad that no other dog or person will even go near that poor beast. Thing'll smell so bad the dog won't be able to stand himself. You leave it on there until the last little bit of flesh rots and falls off, and that dog won't kill chickens again.
"The Bush administration is going to be wired around the neck of the American people for four more years, long enough for the stench to sicken everybody. It should cure the country of electing Republicans."
- Molly Ivins: Don't Mourn, Organize - (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1105-21.htm)

Ya gotta love family, eh?!?
http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html

If the shoe_throws fits...Ware It_out

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-12-04 05:25
No 541163
User Picture       Oh come on abolt

Dissent and protest amongst the population. Sadly THEY seem to have broken your spirit KOS

No, I just think whinging and squealing about the stolen election is a Red Herring at this point.

A new strategy is needed, a complete overhaul of whatever party that has a possible chance of regaining the balance of power should be looked at. IMHO, the way to beat these people is to do it within the existing system and then change and modernize it.

KOS, you surprise me.

Why?
Because I have family and loved ones here that I would rather not subject to such madness?
Are you really that dense to think that such an option is even attractive to people?
You surprise me.
You forget that we have already had 1 civil war here and even though it was nearly a century and a half ago - the wounds and divisions run still run deep.
No thanks, not yet.

As yes I do have an imaginary breaking point where I would consider such action and of course it would be too late - such drastic action is always too late. There are no such things as pre-emptive civil wars. If and when it ever happens, I'll be glad to listen to your "I told you so's". crazy

Just how do you think the U.S. came into being?

So?
I don't think war was anymore noble, or attractive or less deadly back then. Thus, no reason to celebrate or glamorize it.
Violence is never the answer.
Dissent, protest - sure...but no violence.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

psytech
(Hive Bee)
11-12-04 06:29
No 541172
      I belive thgis is very fitting for our times

Thomas Jefferson to William Smith
Paris Nov. 13. 1787.

persevering lying. the British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. yet where does this anarchy exist? where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? and can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. they were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. god forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. the people cannot be all, & always, well informed. the past which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive; if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure. our Convention has been too much impressed by. . .

insert Bush for British

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-12-04 06:39
No 541175
User Picture       Why? Because I have family and loved ones here

Why? Because I have family and loved ones here that I would rather not subject to such madness?

I would say that by doing nothing you are subjecting your family to a more insane form of madness.

Are you really that dense to think that such an option is even attractive to people?

I don't know where I ever said it was "attractive". Maybe I am that "Dense"..........but I'll tell you something for free KOS.......They will NEVER own me.

You forget that we have already had 1 civil war here and even though it was nearly a century and a half ago - the wounds and divisions run still run deep.

A century and a half ago? They better rewrite the history books because the South have won.

As yes I do have an imaginary breaking point where I would consider such action and of course it would be too late - such drastic action is always too late. There are no such things as pre-emptive civil wars. If and when it ever happens, I'll be glad to listen to your "I told you so's".

War is not necessary for change to happen.

I don't think war was anymore noble, or attractive or less deadly back then. Thus, no reason to celebrate or glamorize it.

Where did I "glamorise it"?

Violence is never the answer. Dissent, protest - sure...but no violence.

And if everybody stops waiting around for the "other guy" to do it, things might just change.

PROTEST THE INAUGARATION!
http://www.answerla.org/contact/index.htm

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-12-04 07:07
No 541182
User Picture       huh?

I would say that by doing nothing you are subjecting your family to a more insane form of madness.

Now where did I ever say I was doing nothing?
Or you just assumed...?

They will NEVER own me.

Good for you.
They surely don't own me so what's your point?

They better rewrite the history books because the South have won

I am thinking you find that statement ironic but as the battle lines are completely different, it really has no relevance. You can do better than that.

Show me where I have advocated "doing nothing"...

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-12-04 07:11
No 541183
User Picture       Boring

This is ridiculous........you win.

I hope you put as much effort into changing things in the U.S. as you put into your aimless contradictory posts.

PROTEST THE INAUGARATION!
http://www.answerla.org/contact/index.htm

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-12-04 08:11
No 541187
      we're an international board

> I assume you do not live in the US, so your opinion of far left and the
> american electorate's opionion of the far left is more than likely not one in the same.

excuse me, but this is still (thank god) an international message board and as such we
have a much broader spectrum than the ultra-limited american view. if i would apply
my countries limited view, i'd have to call the democrats "far right". see how ridiculous
that is? if you want to be alone among yourselfs, then ask rhodium to open a forum
exclusive to us-american bees.

> Your definition of far left may be more accurate, when defined by historians

it's not about history, it's about the fact that the world is a bit larger
than what your narrow view may imply. you won't believe it, but there are places
with real communists and stuff like that.

> I do realize it is useless to even waste time disagreeing with you, as you always have
> the last word in any debate, and you walk away the winner even if your tail is tucked
> between your hind legs.

what's wrong with you lately? does your $10 monthly fee give you a free supply
of asshole-pills or what? smoke a joint and relax... you used to be a much nicer person...

> So despite your advice, I will continue to use terms such as "far left" to describe
> those who's words and actions are as defined by the american electorate as Far Fucking
> Left.

then why don't you call them "tree-hugging pinko liberals" or simply "terrorists"?

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-12-04 08:45
No 541189
User Picture       It's starting already

No......this is not Fallujah

This is Los Angeles.......NOW!

http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2299

http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/martial_law_trailer.htm

"Whoever won, it would have been God’s will. But because Bush won, God has clearly shown America his blessings. If Kerry had won, it would have proved God was cursing the United States." --Richard Land, (R) a Southern baptist who participates in a weekly strategy call between the White House and evangelical leaders

PROTEST THE INAUGARATION!
http://www.answerla.org/contact/index.htm

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-12-04 08:48
No 541190
User Picture       Re: excuse me, but this is still (thank god)...

excuse me, but this is still (thank god) an international message board and as such we
have a much broader spectrum than the ultra-limited american view.

That's precisely the point that whoever it was was trying to make. Since you have a different understanding of left and right than the current situation in america, your view is skewed. It may in fact be "more correct", but in terms of america, it is wrong none the less.

If your going to argue the rules of football with an American, you better make sure they know you're talking about soccer or the discussion wont make much sense, even though you both think your talking about the same thing.

What's your monthly ration of asshole pills?

hypo
(Balanced Ego)
11-12-04 08:52
No 541191
      asshole by nature :P

but thanks for asking. how about you?

HÎ¨=EÎ¨

Unobtainium
(Minister of Propaganda)
11-12-04 08:55
No 541193
User Picture       I take 50 with breakfast.

I take 50 with breakfast.

Milk rots your brain.

weedar
(Gaylord)
11-12-04 13:18
No 541225
      heh

I like this one:

http://sorryeverybody.com/gallery/1/

"seriously thishomo internet shit needs to stop" -mcrandom

Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
11-12-04 22:28
No 541286
User Picture       NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE

NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE

To the citizens of the United States of America, In the light of your failure to be able to select a suitable President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves in a fair manner (fair to the rest of us that is), we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP, for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following Rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed".

2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf.

3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard.

4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys.

5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through.

6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full Kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2008.

7. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecision Day".

8. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you European cars, you will understand what we mean.

BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
www.american-buddha.com/addict.war.1.htm

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-12-04 23:00
No 541293
User Picture       umm

5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1.

Will you settle for the Sex Pistol's version?

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

abolt
(Comandante A)
11-12-04 23:40
No 541297
User Picture       The 2 Americas

PROTEST THE INAUGARATION!
http://www.answerla.org/contact/index.htm

kingsofsleep
(Hive Addict)
11-12-04 23:59
No 541301
      ahh yes...

Soon the Dred Scott Decision will be overturned and we can own slaves once again.
Expect the confederate flag to be flying over Washington anytime now or do you think the south will secede again?

I'm not sure where you think you are going with this since the whole red state, blue state comparison is rather misleading.

Like most trends in politics, the red-blue divide has been oversimplified and overstated. Skeptics note that a more accurate electoral map - taking margins of victory into account - would show the nation colored not red and blue but various hues of purple. And many Americans don't stand that far apart on the issues. While activists on both sides of the political spectrum may sharply disagree on everything from taxes to terrorism, polls show most voters see themselves as moderates.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p01s03-usgn.htm

The division is far more nuanced than that over simplified map you posted. The division runs through every community and it's not so clear cut and divided.
It's a goddamned mess actually.

Cui peccare licet peccat minus - One who is allowed to sin, sins less. (Ovid)

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-13-04 01:01
No 541310
User Picture       Purple, not red.

I am right smack in the middle of a red area and I will not be categorized with such idiots. That's like the hive being considered an all American site because many here are American. I know the rest of you would be offended and with good reason. The same applies here.

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

MisterWize
(Hive Bee)
11-13-04 03:11
No 541321
User Picture       Here we got with the Iran propaganda.......

Did someone recently say that Iran would be the next target for Dubya and to wait for the propoganda to begin outlining yet another case for war?

Well here is one exerpt from the bbc about insurgents in Falluja

"The US forces said they had taken 150 guerrillas into custody, including more than a dozen foreigners. Ten of those foreign fighters captured were said to be Iranians."

Is ten out of 150 really that significant. Thats about 6% and yet more pathetic bullshit from the US.

methyl_ethyl
(Guardian)
11-13-04 17:46
No 541394
User Picture       Dearest Hypo,

if i would apply my countries limited view, i'd have to call the democrats "far right". see how ridiculous that is?

Oh yes I do, and I thank the hive for opening my eyes to this. Being an american I found it very strange when I first started hearing all of the talk about how John Kerry was a conservative in the views of many members here at the hive. And where I come from he has the most liberal record throughout his service as a senator. That being said that does not bother me at all, but since this thread is about the election of an american president I feel that if the presidential candidate would want to perform a party swap, they would have to somehow portray themselves as not a member of what america sees as the radical left. I hope that makes sense.

it's about the fact that the world is a bit larger
than what your narrow view may imply. you won't believe it, but there are places with real communists and stuff like that

Yes I realize this, and I do believe it, and you may not believe that my view is much broader than what you may think, although I think it is important to at least try to offer the hive a sense of what the bulk of america is really composed of. I am actually quite scared, the "moral majority" (consisting of closet alcoholic, drug users, homosexuals, pedofiles, etc.) is really starting to denounce the democratic party, keep in mind that the democratic party in my opinion was the party of choice years ago for the god fearing working class of the south. From what I remember talking to older southerners they once viewed the political parties as the workin folk (democratic) and the rich folk (republican). My how that has changed, in fact it has made a complete reversal (somewhat).

what's wrong with you lately? does your $10 monthly fee give you a free supply of asshole-pills or what? smoke a joint and relax... you used to be a much nicer person...

I feel the same way, in fact I took the day off today in your name, seriously... cool

then why don't you call them "tree-hugging pinko liberals" or simply "terrorists"?

because I don't really feel that way. I am not even sure if many americans would feel that way about those that are considered "left" or "liberal". I really feel as if the democratic party is starting to be looked down upon by those that feel as if they are so moral, and have such fine tuned values. In essence the democratic party is being viewed as "The Devil". And once that word gets out to the god fearing americans, it is all over. I kind of feel as if it is all over. For the first time in well the history of America, all of the religious denominations (sans northeastern catholics) have agreed on something. Fuck they are even banding together to spead the truth about "the left". I had no idea until recently how powerful this could ever be, but believe me this is a huge fucking problem.

All I am trying to do here is inform y'all that most of the tactics you are suggesting may work in your countries, or may have worked in america in the seventies, but at this point we are damn near receiving a government issued scarlet letter, except this time it will be an "L". Believe me the last thing I would have ever expected for america would be a fucking religious uprising preaching values. A few years ago I thought religion would be all but stamped out in this country.

The one positive thing about all of this is that I truly believe that there is no true morality left in america. Those that preach about how moral they are could easily be ousted with a probe that infiltrates their private lives. I think the focus should be on proving that these people are not moral at all, in fact we more than likely would find out that they are quite the opposite.

What should be done is to launch probes into the lives of all of the political leaders that have been put into power because of their "moral" and good "american values". It would not take long before some absolutely hiddeous things would be found out about these people (every one of them). The god fearing american electorate would never be able to re-elect or elect someone into office if they found out that the person running for office liked to have sex with young boys wearing dresses, whilst being mounted by another man wearing a chinchilla costume. These sick fucks always take pictures, are always into sick shit, due to their fucked up force feeding of morality growing up, therefore I think they need to be exposed. I feel that that is a way to shut the religious right up for a few years. I guess like everything else this stuff is cyclical.

much_love

methyl_ethyl

   Unipolar Mania, It's good for life... laugh

buz
(Hive Bee)
11-13-04 22:25
No 541435
      chinchilla costumes?

that would bee a cute outfit.

no man could resist such a costume.

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-14-04 18:21
No 541533
User Picture       Kerry was for abortion.

The day before the election, my daughter’s school held a mock one for all students. Bush won in damn near every class. When I questioned my daughter about why most of the kids voted this way her reply was that “Kerry was for abortion“.   Nothing else, just that one statement. She looked so shocked when I told her another side to it. A side that the school seemed to miss in their teaching of politics and government. The more I think about it the madder I get. The fact that my own child who has heard nothing at home but how bad Bush has been for this country and all of his wrong doings only seemed to understand this one statement just blows my mind. When I asked her what about a women’s right to choose especially in the cases of incest, rape and health reasons she didn’t know the answers to that. I guess they hadn’t discussed it yet? crazy

She seemed so shocked when I asked her what they had to say about Bush having all these soldiers killed in this ridiculous war going on in Iraq. I asked her was it better to wait until someone was grown and then have them killed? Right to life can mean many things, not just at birth. How about right to live? Live as we want to live as long as we do not impose harm on other human beings?   Of course, she didn’t know what to say about all of these things. They never discussed that. Hell no, they didn’t but you can rest assured that our kids learnt something from this election. KERRY WAS FOR ABORTION! mad

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

MargaretThatcher
(Hive Bee)
11-14-04 20:03
No 541543
User Picture       Bush was for abortion too

I've just finished Larry Flint's book where he mentions chimp-man getting an abortion for his girlfriend.

Are you now, or have you ever been a Liberal? YES / NO

Jade
(soccer mom)
11-14-04 21:20
No 541556
User Picture       Pro-life?

Dear President-elect Bush:

There are at least 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians from your invasion. About 50,000 of them are women and children. There are over 1,100 U.S. soldiers dead. And certainly the death toll will mount with the bloodbath in Fallujah. With all this death, how can you claim to be pro-life?

You lied about the reasons to invade Iraq. All these people are dead because of your lies.

The 100,000 figure, by the way, comes from a scientific study. Iraqi and American doctors actually did household surveys in Iraq to come up with this figure. I’m sure you will call it phony science. But the same methods were used to figure out the death toll of 50,000 people in Darfur, Sudan, a place your administration is supposedly “very concerned” about.

These 100,000 people will never have the chance to discover the cure for cancer, to marry and have children, or just to look up at the sky and wonder. Your pro-life claims are hypocritical and sanctimonious.

Like you, my vocabulary is not very good, so I looked up sanctimonious. It means: “excessively or hypocritically pious.” Then, just to make sure, I looked up hypocritical. It means: “professing feelings or virtues one does not have.” Bingo!

But what does it matter what I think and say?

I will confess. This isn’t about whether you will listen to me or not. This is about pointing out immorality when you are claiming morals. You claim to be about a “culture of life,” but, Mr. Bush, you have promoted more death than any other living human being. As governor of Texas you executed more people than any of your colleagues. And now, because of your lie-based decision to invade Iraq, over 100,000 “extra” deaths can be laid at your feet.

You claimed the pro-life vote on Nov. 2. But pro-life people have to be troubled by the culture of death your policies have created. From the unrelenting use of racism and bigotry, to the increase in poverty and pollution and the lack of health care, medicine and economic security, these are life and death questions.

An LA Times article about “conflicted Evangelicals” quotes a pastor of a Green Bay, Wis., evangelical church saying he was troubled by the Middle East bloodshed. “It’s hard for me to say that Christians should be marching against abortion and carrying signs, and then turn around and give a pep rally for war in Iraq without even contemplating that hundreds and hundreds of people are being killed on a regular basis over there,” Pastor Joe Urcavich said. While strongly anti-abortion, he also felt that the right to life “encompasses a much broader field than just abortion.” He told the LA Times, “I have to think about the consequences of not providing prescription drugs to seniors or sending young men off to war.”

I called this pastor to talk to him about the Iraq report. He told me he was disappointed with the LA Times story because it didn’t fully reflect the hour-long conversation he had. His intent was to make Christians realize they have a responsibility to think about these issues. Many don’t take that responsibility seriously, he told me. He later e-mailed me saying he wasn’t prepared to answer my questions on the war and report.

Mr. President, I am not religious, but I have a code of ethics and morals I live by. I support a woman’s right to choose, yet I believe I value life much more than you. I don’t lie, cheat or steal. I don’t even kill spiders, let alone human beings. You certainly may act like you have a monopoly on morality, but the truth will set us all free. And there are millions determined to see the truth be told.
http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/6103/1/240

There's a terrorist behind every Bush.

	https://the-hive.archive.erowid.org	the-hive@erowid.org



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