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	All 69 posts		Subject: METH OVERDOSE - Symptoms, Signs, & Suggestions		Please login to post		Thread expires		Down

		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-23-02 11:02 No 286809				METH OVERDOSE - Symptoms, Signs, & Suggestions (Rated as: excellent)
						The following was gleaned from "respected" internet sources and in consultation with an ER physician who is also a meth user (how else do you think one can be mentally and physically alert on a 12-16 hr. shift). I prepared this in memory of Chemgrrl. Her IV use of Meth, Methylphemnidates, and NorEp (extracted from bronchial dilators) was a source of many an argument between us. With all due respect to Chemgrrl, she was very much overweight and in cases like this, Meth is a double-edged sword cause it forces the heart to work harder while at the same time restricting the flow of blood to it!!!  A couple of friends wanted me to print out this post for them.  I would advise against doing this as it could easily be miscontrued by unseen eyes as a sign of recreational use on the part of the owner as well as an instrument for "probable cause". Hopefully, the mods will make this "sticky" so everyone can easily find it - should the need arise! WATCH YOUR INTAKE - SEVERAL SMALL DOSES ARE MUCH SAFER THAN A FEW LARGE ONES!!!!!!!!! Methamphetamine intoxication occurs when the body is presented with an overwhelming amount of the drug and can easily occur due to the unpredictable potency of clandestinlely produced product.  It is much more common as the result of direct routes of administration such as Intra-Venous or Smoking HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH? It is impossible to quantify what comprises a toxic dose  because each person has a different sensitivity  to a   specific  amount of  meth. A toxic level in  one person  may  not be a toxic dose  in another. The  definition  of  a  lethal  dose  of  meth may  also be complicated by other drugs the user may have  taken or by diseases that the person may have developed either as a complication of chronic use or of other causes. Unlike other drug intoxications, meth intoxication gives no immediate signs to its user. An overdose is characterized by a rapid onset of physiological deterioration, which can  lead to heart attack or stroke and in some cases - death. Severity of signs and symptoms indicate how an overdose has progressed or is progressing.  SIGNS & SYMPTOMS 1. High Body Temperature -  =/>100° F 2. Profuse Sweating - regardless of ambient temperature.                                               3. Rapid Breathing - shallow & audible 4. Dilated Pupils - to the point where eyecolor is difficult to discern. ADDITIONAL SYMPTOMS -Cramps in legs, arms and back. -Failure to sweat. -Headaches, dizziness and vomiting. -Sudden exhaustion -Difficulty in urination despite neeed to -Fainting. WHAT TO DO 1. Call EMS 2. Drink water (proportionate to sweating) 3. Place the victim in a bathtub and fill with Cold Water and Ice 4. Tell EMS Techs  that the victim has used amphetamines (your failure to do so could cost the individual their life!) PHYSIOLOGY OF A METH OVERDOSE The presented symptoms are all associated with over-stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) It is this system that accelerates the heart rate, constricts the blood vessels, and raises blood pressure. Meth acts specifically on the SNS causing increased release of the neurotransmitter norepinephrine and allowing it to remain active by decreasing its uptake. As the heart beats faster, more energy is needed for the body to accommodate the extra workload the heart is producing. As the body uses the energy for bodily functions, some energy is also released as heat in the form of sweat as well as a cooling mechanism, thus explaining why profuse sweating happens in an overdose. At a certain point, the fluids needed to produce the sweat deplete, causing dehydration. Because the body doesn't have an effective way to release the heat, the heat accumulates and produces a rise in body temperature. The hyperthermia, together with muscle-twitching, lead to muscle breakdown. The byproducts from this breakdown, proteins, then overload the kidneys. Kidney failure may also be related to high blood pressure and vascular constriction. These cause a decrease in oxygenated blood to the kidneys resulting in tissue and cell death with the organ. Cardiovascular collapse is also caused by constriction of blood vessels. A decrease in blood flow also leads to tissue and cell death of the heart. And with the diminished efficiency of the heart, the heart's output slowly deteriorates, eventually collapsing. HOW A METH OVERDOSE CAN PROCEEDS TO DEATH Fatal meth overdoses, while rare, have several detrimental prognoses in common. They usually result in direct toxic effects, followed by multiple organ failure. Death from a meth overdose is associated with the rapid onset of kidney failure and with the circulatory system collapsing. A large percentage of patients who die usually have symptoms of coma, shock, inability to pass and secrete urine, and muscle twitching, ADDITIONAL WARNING SIGNS Other complications associated with meth intoxication include, pulmonary edema, hypoglycemia, intracerebral hemorrhage, hyperthermia, hypertension, confusion, delerium and hyperactivity NOTE: Yes, methadist is still around due to the recent bad news.  In addition, its hard to quit an addiction!!  That which does not destroy us only makes us stronger !
		KiZaDm (Hive Bee) 03-23-02 14:23 No 286851				hmmm?
						you sure you wasnt saying goodbye just to see who loves ya? nice write up. LYFizBUTaDREAM...and then you wake up dead!
		SQUIDIPPY (Hive Bee) 03-23-02 15:32 No 286865				Excellent !!
						The Squid scores your write up a “full pull”. Excellent work !! There is very little  literature available regarding meth over dose. Very good info !! This post was in reference to the subject line of this tread.
		Porn_Starrr (Newbee) 03-23-02 17:36 No 286893				good job!
						Re: WHAT TO DO 1. Call EMS 2. Drink water (proportionate to sweating) 3. Place the victim in a bathtub and fill with Cold Water and Ice 4. Tell EMS Techs  that the victim has used amphetamines (your failure to do so could cost the individual their life!) To elaborate on an excellent writeup, Call EMS AWAY from your house. Go for a slow walk down the street and don't give out your home location if it can be avoided. Be honest with them when asked "how much" you ingested. Stay calm!!!! If you have been up for numerous days chances are your not thinking to rationally and your anxiety can get carried away and enhance all the symptoms of a O.D Eat something! You have only eaten 1/2 an apple and drank 1 gallon of water in the past 4 days. NOT GOOD. Force yourself to eat/drink something! Your body will shutdown physically if you do not stay nourished. Do not take antihistamines or much of anything else when partying with meth. Smoking pot will NOT help, but do the exact opposite. Don't wory.. your not going to die, as long as you make it to the E.R Once there, you will feel safer even though you'd rather be home getting laid. Chances are they will hook up lots of sticky things to monitor you with. They will start an I.V which will soon make you wanna piss every 5 seconds. This is flushing out your system. Crystal hangs around for a while in your blood stream. The saline drip they give ya will help dilute that. (I think thats what it does ) Eating crystal is bad news if you plan on smoking and snorting it too. Check your purity with an initial small dose. SWIM once made the mistake of NOT checking his purity and ingesting about 250mg over the course of 4 hours. Needless to say.. shit was extremely potent. He didn't know.. 12 hours later leaving the ER, he knew. Sex.. Well, you know that you can fuck forever on crystal. Might not be hard the whole 4 hours, but you got the energy. WRONG! That's borrowed energy. But fuqit. You only live once right? Continue having sex. Just bee careful you don't over-do it. On another ER occasion SWIM was engaging in some pretty hardcore anal action and an hour after he busted (8 hours since last dose) His respiratory system began to act up and heart rate slowly but surely increased to a very uncomfortable level. When you get to the point where it feels like no matter how deep you breath.. your just not getting any air.. it's time to make that call. When an ambulance is called for you.. you will be worked on immediately upon arriving at the hospital. If you have someone drive you.. plan on waiting until you collapse in the waiting room. SWIM recalls getting a ride from 2 girlys to the E.R  Just as he is in sight of the hospital building.. things take a turn for the worse and his heart is literally pounding out his chest. He has them drop him off at the E.R door where he stumbled up to the reception desk. He told the lady he thought he was about to die and explained that he hasn't had any sleep in 4 days and has been ingesting crystal meth. She handed him some forms and instructed him to sit down and fill them out in the waiting area. The waiting area was filled with people who all stared at SWIM as he took baby steps to the nearest available chair. His 2 girly friends came in to the E.R (also spun) and as one  sat with SWIM the other went and caused a sceene with the reception lady. This caused SWIM to get even worse. He stood up, then hit the ground. FINALLY SOME FUCKIN ATTENTION! Was rushed back to the ER where an IV was started and was hooked up to a bunch of gadgets. You don't gain 100% respect for the shit till you see your heart physically moving about your chest, pounding harder than a 15" rockford power series. Thankful to bee here. Respect the shit. The thought of someone else going through what SWIM went through brings tears to his eyes. The scariest moment of his life, and he hopes you never have to experience anything similar.  24m 5,9" 165 lbs. BIG BLACK BEAUTIFUL COCK! Looking for a female who likes to walk.
		Coitus (Hive Bee) 03-23-02 22:54 No 287032				Isn't the LD-50 on meth ungodly high??
						Isn't the LD-50 on meth ungodly high?? COITUS
		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-23-02 23:13 No 287039				Dunno!
						May be difficult to find since meth has been an FDA approved drug for over 60 years! (FYI- "LD-50" is a research term used as a cutoff and comparative statistic that defines the lowest dose at which 50% of test animals die) That which does not destroy us only makes us stronger !
		Coitus (Hive Bee) 03-23-02 23:28 No 287051				I know what a LD-50 is....
						I know what a LD-50 is....just an average dose that kills a little white rodent. I would think the pharmicutical company's  had to preform this testing to get it approved, and prescribed. I seem to remember something like 3000mgs, but I'm too lazy to look it up...... COITUS
		KiZaDm (Hive Bee) 03-24-02 00:01 No 287071				if I controlled the world the LD-50 would ...
						if I controlled the world the LD-50 would represent the lethal dose needed to kill a pig.. LYFizBUTaDREAM...and then you wake up dead!
		foxy2 (Distinctive Doe) 03-24-02 00:28 No 287090				diamonds
						crazy i think that would bee bad for someone in your position Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
		Porn_Starrr (Hive Bee) 03-24-02 02:49 No 287151				ahah
						3grams would kill ya in 10min. I think a dose of less than 5oomg of this shit will end it all. From Errowid: Dosage A toxic reaction (or overdose) can occur at relatively low levels, 50 milligrams of pure drug for a non-tolerant user. Different peoples' metabolisms work at different rates, and drug strengths vary, so there is no way of stating a "safe" or "unsafe" level of use. 24m 5,9" 165 lbs. BIG BLACK BEAUTIFUL COCK! Looking for a female who likes to walk.
		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-24-02 03:09 No 287154				Porn Starr. . .Which one of us is ADD???
						RE: Go for a slow walk down the street! NO! . . NO!. . NO!. With the SNS in an already over-stimulated state, the last thing it needs is exercise. RE: Call EMS AWAY from your house Why? EMS/ER personnel are only required to notify the police in cases of shootings & stabbings - besides your life is more important than a piss-ass investigation with no physical evidence available - call your friends and have them disantle the lab!!! RE:Eat something NO! . . NO!. . NO!. Once again, you are increasing metabolism - THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU WANT TO DO!!! In addition, digestion diverts fluids - which the body now badly needs for sweat in order to cool itself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No offense, Porn Starr, but I can see why you got so fucked up and had to be irrigated - and your advice is going to turn  a bad, but manageable situation into a DOA!!!! RE:Different peoples' metabolisms work at different rates, and drug strengths vary... Porn Starr. . .Which one of us is ADD??? Hasn't that already been mentioned? I guess this is a classic case of "Don't believe everything you read" Not to put down Erowid, I've donated money to them.  But they're a classic case of "trying to manage too much information".  If you're on probation and you heed their advice on drug testing - you are GUARANTEED to go to jail!!! (Same goes for "Fooling the Bladder Cops") That which does not destroy us only makes us stronger ![i]
		twacky (Hive Bee) 03-24-02 05:37 No 287194				Methadist~ have you ever experienced an overdose?
						Methadist~ have you ever experienced an overdose?  Any hospital trips due to drug use? I personally have not experienced an OD, so I wouldn't claim to know more than someone who has Hmmmmmm? Just a thought ~*~ All that we are is the result of what we have thought ~*~
		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-24-02 05:42 No 287195				No, but i had a friend who just died of an ...
						No, but i had a friend who just died of an overdose and want to make sure others don't.  I know a little bit about the Sympathtic Nervous System - so did the doctor who helped me prepare the post. In addition, had Porn Starr known the same - he wouldnt have overdosed and had to go to a hospital!!! That which does not destroy us only makes us stronger !
		JibTec_Warrior (Stranger) 03-24-02 07:09 No 287217				Thank You
						I just wanted to say thank you to methadist for starting this post, i really wish it was around about a year ago when I did overdose.... It was March of last year, my god, it has been a year already, almost to the day.. Me and some buddies had picked up some very potent mushrooms(for our area), and some crystal. All in all, between three of us, we had 15 grams of mush, and about 5 grams of crystal. The crystal wasn't all the pure, maybe about 50% or so. Me and Buddy A ate 6 grams of the mush each, leaving three for buddy B. Over the next 12 hours we had one of the most amazing adventures i think possible on mushrooms. As the comedown hit, we pulled out the glass pipe, and started in on the crystal. About two days later, it was all gone, and me and my buddy were chillin on my bed, toast. There was lots of ppl at my place, thankfully. The last thing I remember, was looking at Buddy A, who had been beside me for an hour, and saying "Dude, How the fuck did you get here?. To which he replied about the same.... 3 days later we both woke up on the hospital, and when i looked over and seen him, i said "Dude, how the fuck did we get here? Better yet, where are we?" Apparently, we both went into some pretty nasty convulsions within about five minutes of each other, and someone happened to be sitting in my room when it started(Thank God). They called the EMS immediatly and got us to the hospital. My official report said that when i arrived, my heart rate was 218/183. Not exactly something anyone ever wants to experience. I hadn't eaten in 2 days. The doc told me later that if I had went another five minutes at that rate, my heart most likely would have given out. I'm don't really know much about overdosing on meth, but i figured i would share my experience, in hopes of opening some eyes to just how dangerous this drug can be. Also Thank You again, methadist, for the excellent write up. I'll be sure to let everyone I know about it.....
		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-24-02 07:16 No 287220				Thanks. . .
						Thanks for sharing your experiences - another lesson to be learned - Don't mix drugs!! - the synergistic effects are unpredictable That which does not destroy us only makes us stronger !
		foxy2 (Distinctive Doe) 03-24-02 13:03 No 287297				Great Overdose info
						Good job Methadist This link has very good info for all drug users/abusers to read.  Especially IV users! What to do if someone overdoses: http://www.overdoseprevention.com/emergency.shtml Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
		Kitchenmagician (Hive Bee) 03-24-02 13:49 No 287304				LD50
						I believe it is 70mg/kg for meth and 17.5mg/kg coke. Check the Merck. chemgrrl you will always be in my thoughts! KM
		PolytheneSam (Master Searcher) 03-24-02 22:06 No 287384				218/183
						This looks like blood pressure JibTec --> 218/183 Someone told me about an alcoholic with a blood pressure like that.  http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html ad terra incognita per ars artis gratia
		Drayen (Stranger) 03-25-02 00:45 No 287429				wouldn't a couple asprin also be good in case of ...
						wouldn't a couple asprin also be good in case of an overdose(or just whenever u do crystal)? people who have a heart attack are supposed to take it because it's a vasciodillator, so it dillates the blood vessals and therefore lowers your blood pressure. i usually take asprin whenever i smoke crystal or take any ephedrine when i go jogging.
		bigeasy (Newbee) 03-25-02 03:44 No 287486				ASA
						Aspirin's role is to prevent clotting. It is not a vasodilator
		aquagirl (Hive Bee / Eraser) 03-25-02 03:49 No 287489				I'm dropping baptist to be a methadist!
						On the nose. I've accidently pegged a fuckload while preparing what was supposed to be a few days worth of rigs.  Users often inject doses high enough to throw them back into the psychosis they were experiencing before they crashed out (yes, that seems to be the reason some folks tweak). Clonidine would be an interesting try- being an alphaalpha adrenergic agonist.  Might have some implications in lowering tolerance, but that's stuff I havent kicked around for years. keep carbs up.  if you go into ketosis the dope has a marked decrease in activity (why most people crash out in just a few days).  if you're trying to go the other way, acidifying the urine is the trick, but I dont know any OTC acidifiers (cranberry juice?). I never know on that asprin thing- you cut the risk of some things and raise the risk of other cardiovascular problems. opiates cause vasodialation- have plenty on hand :)  a nice alcohol rubdown from your partner is often nice. far more people tweak out and end up in the ER thinking they are going to die than actually die.  It's pretty uncommon.  Coke, OTOH is deadly. I carry around a bottle of nuclear green gatorade and drink oceans of it.  I've made maltodextrin drinks in the past going for the slower breakdown of maltodextrin. Get an IV rig and hydrate at home.  You got lotsa choices of stuff to stick in there- just keep tabs on the drip rate, you can die from water overdose.  Then you can just jab needles full of whatever you want into the central line.  I think I'll see if SSI wants to give me a motorized wheelchair and the equip I need to just roll around getting various chems injected on a timer..... (retired) She Who Dances With Hampsters
		Porn_Starrr (Hive Bee) 03-25-02 04:53 No 287504				hah
						re: Get an IV rig and hydrate at home.  You got lotsa choices of stuff to stick in there- just keep tabs on the drip rate, you can die from water overdose.  Then you can just jab needles full of whatever you want into the central line.  I actually considered this at one point. Then I put the pipe down. 24m 5,9" 165 lbs. BIG BLACK BEAUTIFUL COCK! Looking for a female who likes to walk.
		JibTec_Warrior (Stranger) 03-25-02 07:07 No 287543				Blood Pressure
						Ya, it is technically your blood pressure, but it's always been called heart rate to me. The higher those numbers, the faster your heart is going. Normal rate in a human is about 120/80. Your heart will give out at anything over 240/??, it's not built to handle that. Basically, i think it works like this: The faster your heart rate, the higher your blood pressure, the higher your blood pressure, the bigger the numbers.... My doc told me your heart will hold out for about 15 - 20 minutes at 220/180, but it's gonna sustain some major damage doing so....
		QuietBee (Stranger) 03-25-02 09:02 No 287564				great info !
						my husband smokes anyware from 2 to 4 grams of crystal meth daily, and have been useing the drug for 14 years .  only the past 4 years has his intake been at this level and i think its time he put the pipe down but one of his freinds who has been useing this drug just as long as him and just as much a day tryied to quit and after about 5 weeks just fell apart with all kinds of medical problems and ended up hospitolized for some time. has any bee seen this happen?
		JibTec_Warrior (Stranger) 03-25-02 09:27 No 287581				I Have
						I experienced this breakdown recently, when i stopped smoking the good ol crystal. It's called withdrawl. Basically, once one becomes addicted to drug, wether pyschologically, or physically, and you stop using the drug, your body goes through withdrawls. I went through severe/violent mood swings, hot and cold spells, severe depressoin, dizzyness, flu like symptoms, and a few brief paranoia attacks. I ended up in the hospital twice for extreme pain in my stomach area, still not sure if that had anything to do with the withdrawls. More information can be found at www.erowid.org Also note that this was only after using continually for roughly two months, at varying amounts. Someone who has used that for that long, with amounts now that high, would have a very difficult time quitting. I highly doubt they would be able to do it themselves.....
		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-25-02 19:14 No 287713				Meth is not "physically" addicting
						Just about all of the symptoms that JibTek describes are common signs of withdrawl from a psychologically-dependent drug,  However, as bad as long-term, high-dose meth can be - it is not physicallyaddicting, therefore the "flu-like" symptoms were probably really from the flu That which does not destroy us only makes us stronger !
		PoohBearium (Bear With Me) 03-25-02 23:35 No 287813				Lucky to Bee Here
						Here's some ramblings after PB2 ODed on meth: Post 36823 (PoohBear2: "Anxiety Disorder?", The Couch) I will say that he was lucky; he was manically running around outside before the paramedics arrived, and his heart rate was a sustained 180bpm for several hours.  He doesn't regret it, only he wishes that the stupid DARE program he went through would have told him more about proper dosage of all drugs, instead of just showing him pictures and invoking a dangerous curiosity. PB Put your left leg down - your right leg up, Tilt your head back - let's finish the cup!
		pandemonium (Hive Bee) 03-25-02 23:43 No 287816				Now THAT IS funny!
						Get an IV rig and hydrate at home.  You got lotsa choices of stuff to stick in there- just keep tabs on the drip rate, you can die from water overdose.  Then you can just jab needles full of whatever you want into the central line.  I think I'll see if SSI wants to give me a motorized wheelchair and the equip I need to just roll around getting various chems injected on a timer..... Great plan, I hope it is a sick joke.
		SQUIDIPPY (Hive Bee) 03-26-02 02:08 No 287868				withdrawl
						The Squid has been doing meth for over 10 years. He only snorts it though. Smokes it but very, very rarely. A few times when he has quit, (not by his choice, he was incarcerated), He generally feels drained and kinda sick and eats and sleeps for about 6 days then slowly he begins to feel normal. That's normal but still not good. After 5 or 6 weeks, no lingering symptoms, except maybee cravings !! Damn it Jim !! I'm a doctor not a Chemist !!
		LARGEMAN (Hive Bee) 03-26-02 02:54 No 287885				you should know
						To start Aquagirl is correct and it aen't no joke. People that self administer drugs need to know such things as hydrating ones self if OD occurs, whats so sick about that. Unfortunitly when the sympthems occure the victem will almost never figger it out because of confusion brought on by the OD. I almost died 3 weeks ago from meth OD and it aen't nothin nice brothers and sisters. I've got dues to pay yet as I damaged my heart. If I or someone around me had realized what was happening I would have filled myself with dh20 + salt. did you really think this was Burger King ?!?!
		bigeasy (Newbee) 03-26-02 08:00 No 288007				Re: He doesn't regret it, only he wishes that the ...
						He doesn't regret it, only he wishes that the stupid DARE program he went through would have told him more about proper dosage of all drugs, instead of just showing him pictures and invoking a dangerous curiosity. Hee Hee....I remember seeing a cautionary film about smoking dope....A guy finished a joint.....looked at himself in the mirror....and saw a gorilla wearing a sailor hat. Then he looked at a gas flame and it turned into a carnation flower!  That made me want to use drugs!
		MethKat (Hive Bee) 03-26-02 15:54 No 288124				addiction
						Not to be argumentative methadist,but how can you say that meth is not physically addicting?can we be technical then and say a person forms a dependency?you see meth is an artificial metabolism agent.when placing it in your body on a regular basis your body adjusts to this and bottoms out its own metabolism to adjust.Its just like the juicers whose nuts shrivel up from disuse,theyre putting in so much bull or horse test that their balls dont have to produce any, and shut down.same with your metabolism. when you take this away your metabolism is so woefully ineffecient it cannot cope.thus you shut down.it is not uncommon to sleep 15-20 hours a day,and to eat the whole time youre awake.body feeding fuel to your metabolism as it desperately trys to catch up.after 4-6 days of this,physically,you are usually better.after another week your thought processes return to somewhat normal.well asa normal as any of us ever were.we are a different breed.I never experienced this phenomenonuntil i first got tied up w/ the mex cartel about 5 years ago. then after 1.5 - 2 years on 3-7 grams daily i ran out for a few days,and damn...  now I get it every time i stay on meth for even 2-3 days in a row.this fasttrack to phys dependence seems like addiction to me.ritalin is given to hyperactive because stims act as depressants on those with truly high metabs.after medicated for some time the metabolism adjusts.ever seen a 300 pound bitch whose been on meth 20 years?know how she was skinny 10 years ago,You guesedit,metabolismicide.     pharmacology can bee a bitch,but if it goes in my body,I know the pharmacology.i suggest all bees do the same.i dont even take aspirin,med experts cant quite agree on how it really works.enough ranting.MK 667...the neighbor of the beast
		bigeasy (Newbee) 03-26-02 17:54 No 288142				I can attest to the fact NA is woefully ridden ...
						I can attest to the fact NA is woefully ridden with 300lbs ladies that just need bitchslapping.....totally gone to seed. I think they have lost the spark of life.
		aquagirl (Vamp-Bee, Retired) 03-27-02 11:47 No 288498				good points
						I'd meant to make them, but have been busy.  The line between psych and phys addiction is a blurry one at best.  When I come off a heavy meth binge, I'll be near comatose for up to a week depending on how long I'd been going.  Why?  Catecholamine depletion.  I just kicked a heavy H habit again, and that was only 3 days of mild discomfort (clonidine)- but even without it's only a 3-5 day investment and not as bad as the media makes it out to be.  Methadone withdrawal is scary and dangerous. The one thing that can be agreed upon is that downer abuse leads to potentially deadly withdrawal sympoms if you come off wrong.  The rest is just academic technobabble. asprin throws a monkey wrench into a couple spots down the inflamation cascade.  now, white willow bark- the herbal equiv, will burn holes in your gut far faster and nastier than that "synthetic" stuff :) Largeman- wont have phone for a couple days.  call if you can (retired) She Who Dances With Hampsters
		MethKat (Hive Bee) 03-27-02 15:49 No 288546				maintenence
						I recomend this to all tweeking bees,keep yourself full of potassium, zinc,selenium,dl-phenylalinine and hydrate htdrate hydrate.MK 667...the neighbor of the beast
		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-27-02 19:47 No 288623				Newton's Laws applied to Meth
						RE:When I come off a heavy meth binge, I'll be near comatose for up to a week depending on how long I'd been going. "What goes up must come down"  Every action has an equal & opposite reaction" You stay up for long periods of time, you're gonna sleep for long periods of time, regardless of whether or not the stimulus was meth, caffeine, or stress!! RE:The line between psych and phys addiction is a blurry one at best It is actually very finite:  Withdrawl from physically addicting drugs such as alcohol, heroin and nicotine produce physical manifeststions such as delerium tremens, fever, and aches whle psychologically addicting drugs provoke mental aggravations such as depression, irritability and lethargy. The fecal matter is approaching the whirling blades!!!
		Kitchenmagician (Hive Bee) 03-27-02 20:48 No 288652				Soo wrong!
						Please don't post false information such as "The higher those numbers, the faster your heart is going." A person can have a blood pressure of 190/120 and a heart rate of 60.  These are important terms: systolic and distolic pressure.  it is the measure of force in mm of Hg during the hearts pumping and relaxation phases.  I have seen blood pressure of 90/60 and a heart rate in the 140's.  Either your confused or your doc is on drugs. This is not intended as a flame, but only to set the matter straight.  "My doc told me your heart will hold out for about 15 - 20 minutes at 220/180, but it's gonna sustain some major damage doing so.... "  this is not correct as the biggest worry with a b/p as high as this would bee the tiny vessels in your brain that might rupture leading to what is commonly known as a stroke.  Lack of blood to certain areas of the brain is known as a TIA or a transient ischemic attack.  Remember that blood pressure can not be tied to heart rate.  It may work out that way sometimes, ie high b/p with high HR, but this is NOT a rule. KM chemgrrl you will always be in my thoughts! KM
		methadist (Hive Addict) 03-28-02 14:44 No 288998				Yup!!
						Kitchenmagicianis right!! That's why high blood pressure is referred to as "The Silent Killer" - just taking your pulse provides no indication of blood pressure.  You've gotta use a sfigm . . .sphyno. . .sphygmom . . .one a them sit-down thing-a-majiggies with a cuff at Walgreens!!! The fecal matter is approaching the whirling blades!!!
		JibTec_Warrior (Stranger) 03-29-02 09:43 No 289426				Thanx for Clearing that up
						Sorry about that post... I must say that I have to retract my previous statemant, and agree with you KM. I don't think it was my doc that was on drugs(wouldn't suprise me though) but rather it was I who smoked a few too many, and tends to get things confused somedays, especailly in cases like this. Again, thanxk for clearing that up, i really hate to provide wrong information....
		Kitchenmagician (Hive Bee) 03-29-02 16:38 No 289519				A little more!
						Methadist, I'm pissing on myself I'm laughing soo hard. I can't spell it or even say it. Yep thing-a-ma-giggie at wal-greens. Jib, quite all right, but since this is a thread about physiology, I thought i would add a little more. Big word: homestasis= the bodies natural desire to return to normal. If you are bleeding badly, your HR will increase due to the drop in BP.  Your heart will try and compensate for the low BP and return it to its natural state. Here is some food for thought regarding OD'ing. So you do a shot and it is "stronger" then what you thought, as the rush comes on you start to get scared because you can tell its a lot. Question: what does your body do in a fearful situation? Answer: fight of flight syndrome.  Your body starts pumping its own  adrenaline causing a synergistic effect with the meth or coke you just shot, ie making it way more dangerous. Been there done that. chemgrrl you will always be in my thoughts! KM
		lowtech (Old Timer) 04-08-02 19:26 No 294308				Well, thanks
						I had a few close calls and I say the info is good. AND The IV talks I had with Chemgrrl always ended in a decision on my part not to tempt fate. We, did agree that everyone has a method to their madness and is responsible for what they do to themselves. Thanks Meth for the report See next time Chemgrrl. -lt 'on coffee and bugles' My statement; Academic - adj:theoretical without having practical useHerding cats.
		johnny_toxic (Stranger) 04-14-02 10:12 No 296765				wicked thred
						excellent thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!thanx!!!!!!!!! What's my drug of choice? Well whatt've ya got? I don't go broke! But I do it alot!
		PoohBearium (Bear With Me) 04-18-02 06:23 No 298531				Combo Therapy
						I hope this isn't too off topic, but I've noticed that even rational meth use has many undesirable side-effects on some, such as overly-tense muscles, which seem to result with muscle aches, pains, and spasms.  Wouldn't the use of muscle relaxors, such as Flexerall(sp?), in combination with a pain reliver prove beneficial to combat these negative symptoms?  (OTC, such as asprin; or prescription meds...?) I wonder if preventing muscle contraction would minimize any muscle deteriorization experienced... Curious in CyberSpace, PB Hooty Hoo!
		foxy2 (Distinctive Doe) 04-18-02 08:39 No 298584				probably
						Breafast 40mg Oxycontin (not chewed!!) 350mg SOMA 150mg Meth I'll bet you would bee loose as a goose and high as a kite!! Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
		Kitchenmagician (Hive Bee) 04-18-02 15:48 No 298698				flexeril
						It may just bee me, but I'm kinda funny about mixing drugs that are related to the tri-cyclic family with just about anything stimulating.  Too many chances for an adverse rxn.  I don't believe meth by itself deteriorates the muscles, what happens is if you go on a long binge and you don't have much fat, as soon as all the fat has been burned, muscle is next in line.  So best to force something down (food) when partaking in binges. Plenty of water and electrolytes are a must. KM Special Prayers to our fallen bees and their families :( KM
		Flinger (Hive Bee) 04-19-02 21:04 No 299252				LEGS (Rated as: insignificant)
						heavy restless legs cured with alums? ussually symptomatic of craving after a big JOLT a condition of, ussually associated with transformation of sulf inside the human parachima at of course variying tempatures in and around the body big is accociated with d-l inballances as has been well reported 50% d 50% l very good cure for pure d, changing salts from cas to s to ca a veryt good idea all other ideas regected becuse of lack of foundation.   larger alum doses accociated with yes more twitching and shit resembelent of a not so good dream, hands up crooked fingers like arthritus, the key would be to not drag this alums into the brain um its supposed to stop them bbb Concerning overall sats of alum in humans and other mannals they say this stuff is inert?  I seriously doubt that, but alum has been a major part of the crust we stand on for millions of years?  There is no way to avoid alum compleatly so it is considered safe?  I say there is signifiant stuff can happen to you consider the osmotic pressure between the body and the brain saturated weith alum, ya think it springs a leak sooner or later?  If we keep adding sulf ther is no way for these alums formed to escape leading to increased aggitated states not just in the brain all over the entire body, there is all this epinipherine like substance I magine the pressure and what might happen should those gates protecting the brain should spring leaks what might pass??? BBB Imagine in response to add those gates being pushed open and the entire brain going into slow mode producing all kinds downers untill its depleated, humm have fun sleeping? Now? I have basicially replaced the brains inner mechanisms because it was screwed up Now i can sleep when I want and stay awake when I want unfortunatly I need stuff like eye drops to keep my eyes ok, other stuff too. All i want is some barbituate so I can continue on with my life synth needed.  NUMBUTAL DRUG OF CHOICE \ SCRATHING PILL COAT OFF EVERYTHING HAS HELPED IN THIS REGARDS MY DR INSTRUCTS ME TO DO THIS ALLWAYS NOW THEY SIMPLY SWIRL THE NASTYNESS INSIDE!!! oh fucking fuc fuc fuc
		liquidsilver (Stranger) 04-24-02 21:06 No 300897				Other things to help ODs
						From my experience, those that have been on meth for several days really need to eat like they regularly would. Sometimes, malnutrition can lead to severe poblems on meth.
		methadist (Hive Addict) 04-25-02 00:15 No 301008				RE: Wouldn't the use of muscle relaxors, such as ...
						RE:Wouldn't the use of muscle relaxors, such as Flexerall(sp?), in combination with a pain reliver prove beneficial to combat these negative symptoms? Logic would dictate, yes!  However, one of the cardinal rules of recreational drug use is - never mix drugs!  Some of the synergistic effects of combintations of drugs are  unpredictable. One of the biggest "no-no's is done by cokeheads trying to take the "edge" off when they're coming down or still peaking.  Logic dictates yes - but coke and diazepam both have depressant efects on the  brain's medulla - and can inhibit breathing response.  Result: people who overdo coke and valium die in their sleep!           \\  //         ( @ @ ) --oOOo-(_)-oOOo---  mmmmmm meth               ||
		zed (Newbee) 04-25-02 09:58 No 301196				Aquagirl.
						Regarding urinary acidifiers. One good one is vitamin C, ascorbic acid. Having a sensitive urethra, due to many close encounters of the microbe sharing kind, I notice such things. Also note, moderate exercise often has the effect of lowering blood pressure, while raising heartrate. Blood pressure is lowered because exercise and its by products (CO2) have a direct effect on muscle tissues that causes vascular dilation in the tissues. As an experiment, take your blood pressure, then take a brisk walk around the block, rest a moment, then take your blood pressure again. A drop of 10 points is common. It will however increase your core temperature. Regarding dehydration, drink fluids, pedialyte or Gatorade can help. Long distance runners can easily maintain a rectal temperature of 105 Degrees while running. No problem! When they become dehydrated, due to flu...Diarreha Etc., and they race anyway, they sometimes die of hyperthermia. Sound familiar? Oh, and why do they do that crazy shit?... Because exercise causes their bodies to produce endorphines, and 17-Keto-steroids, in a word....It gets them "High". Warmest Regards.......Zed Oh, you know it might be possible to hypnotize yourself, so you feel like you're high on drugs. This will drive your P.O. crazy! High as a kite, but negative U.A.. "When I looked inside myself, I found the whole universe"..... Swami Muktananda
		hookedonhydro (Hive Addict) 04-28-02 08:44 No 302475				commin down on meth..
						The come down sux, yes.. Does anyone here use xanax as parachute when commin down?? How "safe" is that?? Say, 1mg xanax's. Nothing else in your system of course.. just crystal and xanax. Just askin from a medical standpoint. Asked the resident expert and he gave me his opinion.. now it's your turn. What would be the negatives to doing such a thing?? Generally I would pop a .25 mg xanax.. nuthin bad has ever happened.. Only have 1mg's available. Could this fuck you up in a worse way?? The .25's never did anything noticable.. Never took more than one or any stronger than that. To eat it, or not to eat it.. thats the idear Clitoris: Erectile organ visible at the front junction of the labia minora in the vulva.
		Kitchenmagician (Hive Bee) 04-29-02 17:55 No 303050				no!
						As far as I know there are not any interactions between the 2 drugs.  SWIKM hates meth without having some benzos for the down side.  He has been doing this for years, but as everyone will tell ya drug cocktails as a rule are a no-no. KM Special Prayers to our fallen bees and their families :( KM
		hookedonhydro (Hive Addict) 04-30-02 01:51 No 303179				Actually worked quite well.. Kinda scary though..
						Actually worked quite well.. Kinda scary though.. wonder if I'll be tempted to do it more if I have that security blanket to fall back on. It helped with the comedown alot. =) Clitoris: Erectile organ visible at the front junction of the labia minora in the vulva.
		PoohBearium (Bear With Me) 04-30-02 03:46 No 303227				Not too uncommon...
						..of a cocktail around these parts; however, when stop remembering when/where you fell asleep, it's probably time to lay off for awhile PB Put your left leg down - your right leg up, Tilt your head back - let's finish the cup!
		hookedonhydro (Hive Addict) 04-30-02 05:45 No 303254				Holy shit! PB hits the nail on the head!
						Holy shit! PB hits the nail on the head! I awoke trying to remeber how/when I fell asleep! heh, 2mg of xanax and 3 days with no sleep will have ya dazed and confused! Some people are such bad influences!!!!! Clitoris: Erectile organ visible at the front junction of the labia minora in the vulva.
		PoohBearium (Bear With Me) 04-30-02 18:07 No 303409				Why, thank you
						I thought some might be able to relate to that statement ; I'm kind of glad I never had the access to that benzo back in my amphetamine days, though it probably could have helped out with those pesky shadow people. PB BTW, here's a good "Nutritional therapy" article for drug abuse rehabilitation: http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m3374/10_21/55090846/print.jhtml   Put your left leg down - your right leg up, Tilt your head back - let's finish the cup!
		methadist (Hive Addict) 05-07-02 08:28 No 305720				More symptoms
						Additional warning signs of overdose: -Cramps in legs, arms and back. -Failure to sweat. -Headaches, dizziness and vomiting. -Sudden exhaustion -Difficulty in urination despite neeed to -Fainting.           \\  //         ( @ @ ) --oOOo-(_)-oOOo---  mmmmmm meth               ||
		crunch (Stranger) 06-01-02 04:03 No 316555				you know when it time to go
						I agree with yu ,just too bad it wasn't us instead of k tthem, it hurts the kids more!!!Stick warditgo
		raffike (Hive Bee) 06-09-02 05:07 No 319052				Well,first timers should not take over 120 mg ...
						Well,first timers should not take over 120 mg pure althought raf took 150 and he had very intense effects first time.But 100 should be more than enough for non-tolerant user.But it may differ a little.
		methadist (Couch Potato) 06-10-02 01:46 No 319255				Actually , Hydro - you may be right on target on ...
						Actually , Hydro - you may be right on target on this one.  Here's what http://www.emedicine.com (written by MDs) recommednds for Meth Intoxication . . . Prehospital Care: Patients with acute methamphetamine intoxication may be highly agitated and present a serious safety risk to prehospital personnel. Seek additional help from police or other EMS providers should before patient transport, if possible. Prehospital IV access is warranted with patient consent, allowing for treatment of seizures and agitation using IV benzodiazepines according to medical direction or protocol. Xanax® is Alprazolam which is an analog of 1,4-benzodiazepam           \\  //         ( @ @ ) --oOOo-(_)-oOOo---  mmmmmm meth               ||
		hookedonhydro (Hive Addict) 06-10-02 08:38 No 319332				But of course..
						Re: Actually , Hydro - you may be right on target 99.999% of the time I am. Im glad someone finally noticing! Clitoris: Erectile organ visible at the front junction of the labia minora in the vulva.
		water (Stranger) 06-20-02 07:08 No 323285				I mostly agree with 3g killing in 10 min.
						I mostly agree with 3g killing in 10 min. and the 50mg. A friend of swim's tried this amount and immediatly went into shock, and convulsed for what seemed an eternity but did recover a few hours later unscathed. he was lucky. swim has slam'd 60mg. but knew exactly of the potency beforehand and would'nt recommend it to any newbee. of course swim knows coke is much less harmfull and looks forward to those abnormaly large rigs
		violane_adare (Stranger) 07-26-02 10:47 No 337356				Commentary on tolerance & side note on KHAT
						Since I light up like a homing beacon whenever there's a post about our lady Crystal *shame - someone help me * I feel once again prodded into adding a possibly irrelevant 10c worth. I have found that through a while *grin* of sustained use of allmost all amphetamine-like substances, crystal being the most potent *yummmmmm!*, my heart - like any muscle, seems capable of taking a lot more than someone who had never tried. I am a ballet dancer in my spare time and perhaps the level of physical activity I undertake has also helped (warning : do NOT dance or engage in ANY strenuous activity - that might take your heart rate up significantly, if youv'e been on a serious bender - it's just plain stupid). Does anyone have a comment on whether this phenomenon is verifiable - ie : do stimulants cause an increase in heart musle/capacity after usage ? A side note on KHAT (methacathinone- chemical synth of Khat), I would call this stuff, "low grade" meth, it sure picks up your ol ticker quite a bit & it seems more "chatty" than crystal - which after a while gives me the whole "piss off I'm on a mission from god" vibe. HOWEVER that said - the comedown is INFINITELY worse - "steak knife tuesday" type stuff and for anyone even vaugely depressive or even just dealing with major issues - be warned. Also the levels of toxicity (due to unwanted side-products produced by inaccurate synthesis), are significantly higher than with crystal. This may be due to the fact that you have to take about 3 times as much to get the same effect as crystal (grrrr!) - as in 1/2 a g of crystal will keep lil ol me going for a good few days 1 & 1/2 g of Khat is needed to do the same - bleh! However, if I can't get my mitts on our lady (sulk), it does quite a reasonable imitation of thedelicious effects. Just be careful, Khat is easy to synthesise and  as a result there is a huge amount of shite stuff out there ! BEE-SAFE & party hard Violane etes vous pret pour la danse de la mort?
		SaintCyril (Hive Bee) 07-26-02 11:08 No 337361				Okay what if you always feel this way
						-Cramps in legs, arms and back. -Failure to sweat. -Headaches, dizziness and vomiting. -Sudden exhaustion -Difficulty in urination despite neeed to -Fainting Okay so I hav e been reading this thread, and find some of what peope have to say a little obsurd.  I consume in one way or another near a gram a day, and have on may ocassions used 3.5g smoked in a 3 or four hour period, and yes it was pure.  I have many friends who think nothing of 250mg injected multiple times per day.  I have a pattern of staying up for three days and sleeping for 8 hours that I have kept for almost 3 years, and although I feel the symtoms below almost everyday, I just figured that it was part of the deal, you just had to live whit it, and besides if you take your mind off of it for a minute then you feel fine, but what really is of interest to me is this.  About once a year I decide to take a month break from this pattern, which ussually sucks, but the entire time I still feel the apparent symptoms of a meth overdose, which leads me to believe that perhaps these symtoms, although I am sure copied from a reliable source, are something differnt then symtoms of an overdose, even the fainting, I bet I see one person faint a week, but maybe I just hang with wierd people.   The best way I have found to avoid the bad side effects, but still get the pro-effects is to take orally 250mg, with the addition of a 120mg of pseudo ephedrine, do this 4 times a day, and then smoke all you want on top of that, and metering becomes easier. Anyhow thats about all I have on that one, Cy We are the people that your parents warned you about.
		civicSyStem (Hive Bee) 07-26-02 23:11 No 337498				so coke is considered less harmful than meth?
						so coke is considered less harmful than meth?  is that in every aspect of it or just certain parts like what it can do to different systems (respiratory, nervous, etc.)? A good spy is but the secret writer of all moments imminent.
		Buster_Hymen (Resident Smart Assium) 07-26-02 23:30 No 337501				From a neurological point of view, I think so.
						From a neurological point of view, I think so. If I remember right, cocaine works by inhibiting re-uptake of dopamine, whereas meth not only inhibits re-uptake, but increases the amount released, so you get a lot more dopamine floating around in the synapse (than with cocaine) and it hangs around a lot longer, which tends to damage the receptors.   \\|//     ф¿ф    --  Anger management? Fuck that!     \O/       '''
		goiterjoe (Title on BackOrder) 07-26-02 23:35 No 337503				what the experts have said
						Alexander Shulgin once testified in court that the only residual long term side effects from cocaine usage would be the destruction of the cartilage between the nostrils if the person consumed intranasally for a long time.  Other than that, Shulgin didn't acknowledge any physical or psychological problems. All paths are the same: they lead nowhere
		jinky (Hive Bee) 07-26-02 23:48 No 337508				damaged receptors
						>>meth not only inhibits re-uptake, but increases the amount released, so you get a lot more dopamine floating around in the synapse (than with cocaine) and it hangs around a lot longer, which tends to damage the receptors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not the increased amount of dopamine that damages the receptors is it?  Isn't it the fact that, after seriously extended heavy usage, the receptors aren't as able to create and release as much dopamine as before?  It makes sense logically, but as I remember, there wasn't any concrete evidence that if the damage even occured, that the effects would be permanent. That's what I was taught in my college pharmacology class anyways, could very well bee incorrect. -jinks funny honey bunny
		methadist (Couch HOG/Conversation DOMINATOR) 07-29-02 05:11 No 338367				Does anyone have a comment on whether this ...
						Does anyone have a comment on whether this phenomenon is verifiable - ie : do stimulants cause an increase in heart musle/capacity after usage ? The answer is not as simple as you might expect.  One of the first "institutionalized" misuses of amphetamines was on the part of football players in America's NFL - most notably the San Diego Chargers, whose team doctor peactically ordered all players to consume amphetamines prior to a game. However, it must be remembered that these were athletes in good physcial shape and they were consuming perhaps 100 -200 mg of dextroamphetamine once a week. A daily user of larger amounts of the stronger methamphetamine who is not in good physical condition might certainly be placing undue stress on the heart. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
		methadist (Couch HOG/Conversation DOMINATOR) 07-29-02 05:17 No 338369				so coke is considered less harmful than meth?
						so coke is considered less harmful than meth? While meth probably does more neurological damage in the long-term, please remember that death from overdose of cocaine (usually IV or smoking crack)is far more common. Here is some data from the Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN) - an organization of the U.S. Dept of  Health which complies stats on drug overdose deaths.  While their numbers are inflated, the proprtionate ratios are probably equal.  Compare coke to meth!!!: The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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