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	All 75 posts		Subject: "In morte" electrolytic meth synthesis		Please login to post		Down

		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 05-01-03 20:15 No 430656				"In morte" electrolytic meth synthesis (Rated as: excellent)
						Industrial accident: in morte electrolytic synthesis of methamphetamine. Alan D Barbour, Bill L Posey. Bulletin of the International Association of Forensic Toxicologist XXXIII(2) (2003) 28. Mr W, an experienced line crew supervisor, was assisting in the transfer of an electrified 12,000 volt power transmission line to a new pylon when a sustained discharge took place from the line through him to the metal pylon and thence to earth. No witnesses were looking at Mr W at the time the discharge began and the cause of the accident remains uncertain; it may have been due to improper placement of temporary insulation or a puff of wind displacing the tackle being positioned for the transfer. When Mr W's body was lowered to the ground its temperature was estimated to be about 150°C. A search of the decedent's clothing at the mortuary discovered a vial containing an orange powder in the left front trouser pocket, which was turned over to the police. At autopsy no significant physical abnormalities or signs of drug abuse were noted. There were electrical burns on the right hand and left thigh; blood was collected for drug and alcohol testing. Initial testing of the decedent's blood by immunoassay and gas chromatography-mass spectrometry at Central Valley Toxicology confirmed the presence of d-methamphetamine (1.76 mg/l) and d-amphetamine (0.52 mg/l). On the basis of a nonspecific screening test and its appearance the orange powder was presumed by the police to have been illicit methamphetamine; since no crime was involved the police destroyed the sample before it could be requested for reanalysis by a specific method. Mr W's coworkers (notably including a former policeman with specialized training in the recognition of people under the influence of drugs) reported no abnormal behaviour on his part, and no symptoms indicative of methamphetamine abuse. Neither did they note any change in his behavior. He was known to be suffering badly from hay fever, however, and to be taking a nonprescription compound of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen and chlorpheniramine in the form of an orange tables. Subsequent reinspection of the LC-MS data demonstrated the presence of pseudoephedrine in relatively small amounts. Electrolytic reduction of pseudoephedrine to methamphetamine appearing possible, a literature search was carried out. It was discovered that the electrolytic synthesis was patented in 1936 1, and that although it is known to illicit manufacturers they have only rarely been known to make use of it. 2 Experimental An electrolytic cell was constructed, filled with an solution of pseudoephedrine in isotonic saline, and subjected t a low amperage direct current for a few minutes. A very few bubbles formed on the electrodes and a small amount of methamphetamine was produced. A higher amperage source (a 12 volt automotive battery charger) was then applied briefly, which produced vigorous foaming and increased conversion of pseudoephedrine to methamphetamine. Discussion Not only were the very high concentrations of methamphetamine and amphetamine in Mr W's blood not anticipated, they were altogether inconsisten with his history, autopsy, and behavior. Such high levels could hardly fail to produce some symptoms of intoxication 3; they are potentially lethal 4,5. Leaving aside the question of postmortem redistribution of drugs and fluids, if the amphetamine and methamphetamine were derived in high yield from pseudoephedrine by electrolysis, the pseudoephedrine level would have been about twice normal therapeutic levels 4,5. This would be consistent with reports that Mr W suffered badly from hay fever, but still far below toxid levels. Another peculiarity of this case is the very high level of amphetamine both in absolute terms and compared to methamphetamine; this is another argument against methamphetamine abuse by Mr W, because such a pattern is not typical of illicit methamphetamine users. Conclusions We conclude that Mr W was taking pseudoephedrine, which was reduced to methamphetamine by the electric current passing through his body; that amphetamine was produced by further decomposition under the extreme conditions of heat, electrical current and voltage; and that the orange powder contained in the vial (which was directly in the path of the discharge through his body) had probably been his allergy medicine. References 1. FP Nabenhauer. Method for the production of substituted benzyl carbinamines and product thereof, Patent GB447792 (1936) 2. A Sinnema, ANA Verweij. Impurities in illicit amphetamine: a review. United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention Bulletin on Narcotics. Issue 3-004. 37-54 (1981) 3. P Lebusg, BS Finkle, JW Brackett Jr. Determination of amphetamine, methamphetamine, and related amines in blood and urine by gas chromatography with hydrogen-flame ionization detector. Clinical Chemistry 16, 195-200 (1970) 4. DRA Uges (Ed). Therapeutic and toxic drug concentrations. The Bulletin of the International Association of Forensic Toxicologists 26(1) supplement (1995) 5. RC Baselt. Disposition of toxic drugs and chemicals in man, sixth edition. Biomedical Publications, Foster City, California (2002)
		Aurelius (Hive Addict) 05-01-03 20:46 No 430670				Um.... Wow.
						That's amazing. It can be done. Meth synthesis in the body from readily available precursors. Without extraction!   Who's going to be the first to try this for verification?  Anyway, the PE wasn't an ester, yet it still reduced, even in the body.  Anybody have more details?
		Jetson (Title Addict/Eraser) 05-02-03 03:18 No 430720				!!!
						so there need not be a catalyst(i.e. palladium etc..) if the current is high enough?  didn't say if the guy had a russian rupi in his pocket did it? the devil is so lonely
		amalgum (Hive Bee) 05-02-03 03:36 No 430722				hmmmm
						Dissolve pseudo in salt water and zap it with 12,000 volts.  Sounds like frankenstein.............
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 05-02-03 05:54 No 430740				I know.
						I've known this for years, but haven't posted it for the reason that high voltage is dangerous.
		walter (Stranger) 05-02-03 06:05 No 430742				time vs voltage
						How many volts would you realistically need for a nano/small scale, if the authors are producing "some" goodies from a 12V car battery? Could a lower voltage and a long reaction time provide the same level of reduction as a high voltage and a short reaction time?
		raffike (Hive Addict) 05-02-03 06:08 No 430743				So bring these neon transformers out and start
						So bring these neon transformers out and start zapping. I think this might be a bit dangerous... For those about to synth,we salute you
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 05-02-03 06:16 No 430744				XFile
						I came very close to posting it in an XFile, but decided not to. Basic Laws in Electrochemistry. Voltage determines the reaction mechanism. Amperage determines the rate of the reaction mechanism. This is a brute force voltage-amerage reduction of ephedrine.
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-02-03 13:30 No 430832				information
						Gladly it shows up again that suppression of information does not work in the longer run. Sadly it shows up that suppression of information also takes place where one wouldn´t expect it. I understand completely a nondisclosure to protect resources and the availability of precursors at least for some time. But electricity? It is the same as with H2S: Not not to tell is not the way to go but to tell how to do it safe and right would it be in my eyes. So throwing in the H2s without bundeling it with the KIPP was wrong and not naming the HV possibility at all also. I've known this for years My all time favorite! Gives own research and efforts such a special "worthy" touch. The pedagogical concept this is based on is called "overprotection", it is outdated. I had gotten the feeling from time to time to be treated like a member of a schoolclass of retards - and see: I will have to trust my feelings better in future. Thanks Rhodium. I´ll burn a candle for you next sunday. ORG Free speech, free mind, free information! Fight teacherism!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-03-03 01:23 No 430994				electrodes
						This poor guy's case is interesting in that there was no electrode within his body on which to do the reduction. His body was just acting as conductor at 7000 volts. I told a friend at work about this today, and we laughed about how many volts people would be willing to take to turn sudo into meth inside their bodies. It was a fun afternoon. I'm intrigued by their experimental section. Obviously they used a divided cell because published refs demonstrate that sudo or ephedrine will be oxidized to resin at an anode. That leaves the cathode... did they use a low hydrogen overvoltage cathode like Pt, Ni, or Pd to encourage hydrogen generation, or did they go for a high hydrogen overvoltage metal like lead to get a more negative charge on the cathode. This is interesting...I wonder what "some more yield" at 12 volts means. 18 volts can be had by running two 9 volt batteries in series.
		Dolemite (Newbee) 05-03-03 03:41 No 431018				The High Volt Age
						Instructions on how to build a 20-30KV dc power source from an old monitor.  WARNING:  Very dangerous, can kill, use extreme caution. http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/cdptht.htm#eng Does anyone know if this would suffice amperage wise etc?
		aliennomad (Stranger) 05-03-03 13:57 No 431111				got an idea
						what about  taking 2 120mg psedo and zapping ones self with a good stungun? might be one hell of a rush.
		halfkast (Newbee) 05-03-03 17:46 No 431143				Rhodium! This is a fucken excellent find!
						Rhodium! This is a fucken excellent find! I don't see where they are saying a multi kilo-wattage is required. I'm re-reading the Experimental section and it's saying nothing of the sort. Thats GOOD that your wrong. It sounds closer to they used a 9V battery in the initial experiment with limited but PRESENT success, then they used a higher AMPERAGE 12V power supply with more success. I wonder what amount of cleaning and preparation has to bee done on the pills? all the adulterants will already bee dissolved in the ultimate solvent. I was day dreaming about electro meth earlier too, just a coincidence. I was thinking wouldnt it bee great to stick the -/+ wires in a glass of dissolved pills and make something positive. I was expecting something more involved though.
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-03-03 19:53 No 431160				more as 50 Volt for sure
						It will be more than 12V or 18V whats needed. "Dangerous" voltage starts at about 50V DC as far as I remember. A divided cell design with a porous cup may be necessary alone to prevent an arc between anode and cathode. Also the described fuming of the isotonic liquid is to prevent in a working cell design. Probably the enclosure in a tube would be helpful providing the additional reaction enhancement of elevated pressure. And where the necessary hydrogen is to come from is another question. A MOT (microwave oven transformer) provides probably enough voltage and amperage for the job and the necessary high voltage diodes for rectification are included if you salvage a old micro. nothing special
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 05-04-03 02:46 No 431203				110V @ 15 Amps
						The electrochemical reduction of SEMICARBAZIDE SULFATE uses 110 V @ 15 Amps. Also have a look at the cell construction. http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv1p0485
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-04-03 04:00 No 431208				better cell construction
						o-Aminobenzyl alcohol prepared by the reduction of o-nitrobenzaldehyde1,2 or o-nitrobenzyl alcohol. No mercury cathode, rather easy cell construction: http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv3p0060 There will be even more usable designs - this was just a quick search result. The electrochemical reduction of phosphoric acid is worth a second look as it was taken down quite to obvious. Post 396783 (Captain_Mission: "electrolysis of phosphoric acid", Chemicals & Equipment) retarded meth addict
		Aurelius (Hive Addict) 05-04-03 08:26 No 431246				Voltage and Amps
						What amount of Voltage, Amps or a combo is generally lethal?
		tranceport (Hive Bee) 05-04-03 08:52 No 431250				Voltage wont kill you...
						Im sure there is a lethal level, But Ive seen 50-60k volt stun guns.
		geezmeister (Bee of the Month) 05-04-03 13:16 No 431276				Amazing expert witness
						From the viewpoint of the non-chemist, might I add that this sounds like the testimony of an expert witness in a worker's compensation death claim the employer was attempting to defend by claiming the employee was intoxicated on methamphetamine at the time? I obviously lack the education to comment on the process and its viability, but I could draw some adverse conclusions on the veracity of "expert" witnesses in wrongful death cases-- on either side. Just a cautionary comment. I'm sure there are some litigation "whores" among forensic chemists-- just as there are among pathologists and surgeons. The FBI seems to have demonstrated this just recently. Mostly harmless
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-04-03 14:43 No 431278				there is a second expert witness on the process
						Geez, there is a second expert witness on the process´s viability - somebody who knew this for years. WizardX. The dead man may rest in peace and if the forensic was cheating - welldone! Thats the least these 2 dollar whores of LE can do, regarding the faked and tweaked "expertises" they produce for state attorneys and police. Technically thats more than easy: HPLC and GC run under conditions where (pseudo)ephedrine is easily converted to methamphetamine if small amounts of impurities are present. On Uncle Fester´s question on the electrodes: If I understand the term "brute force" right, the electrodes material is of minor importance if the voltage is high enough - everything what does neither react nor vapourize should work. here we go
		wareami (Hive Addict) 05-04-03 16:23 No 431314				All RISE!!!! This court is now in session!
						Will the third expert witness please take the stand? Okay...we all know that true pioneers donate their bodies to science once they are done using them! Not Ibee! He's donated his while it's still in use! While the first expert witness(Ole Sparky) bioassayed, in vivo, His testimony is null and void of substance. The tests performed in vitro(vial of meth), say nothing about the quality of this substance, from what I could gather! While the shocked dewd most assuredly saw stars, I wonder what kind of buzz the shyte in the vial would produce! Ibee has confirmed without a doubt that HIGH temp HI/RP rxns produce a product less than desirable for those that have fried neuroreceptors and transmitters! He can't speak for normal individuals! Just saying that d-meth is present and was converted through High Voltage electro says nothing about the safe consumption of a product aquired via this route! Maybe a simultaneous rxn occurred where the phosphorus in Old Sparky's Urine penetrated the vial after he pissed himself! Ibee's with Geez on the "Current" trend and probably won't GO with "Flow" of further investigation into this route! Although it is an attractive and tempting method timewise. Just Zap it and GO! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Courts Adjourned! Empty the prisons: make room for Congress! https://www.chemhead.org
		GC_MS (Hive Addict) 05-04-03 18:48 No 431342				hmmm
						From the viewpoint of the non-chemist, might I add that this sounds like the testimony of an expert witness in a worker's compensation death claim the employer was attempting to defend by claiming the employee was intoxicated on methamphetamine at the time? I didn't consider the case from that angle yet, and I must say it gives a whole other dimension to the story. Maybe the expert witness should have asked a ethical permit to do some testing on bunnies. If he was the one earning the pennies in the family, I can imagine the relatives can use financial compensation for his death. It should be worth the sacrifice of a couple of bunnies, although some animal lovers might not agree with me. The faster you run, the quicker you die.
		MnkyBoy78 (Hive Bee) 05-05-03 09:10 No 431515				Would not the minerals in the body become the...
						Would not the minerals in the body become the cathode/anode? One bit of info that was omitted was where the sample of blood was taken from.  Blood samples should have been taken from near both the entrance and exit points, IMO. This also points out the fact that a gut-like extraction of p-fed is clearly clean enough for a electro method, (That is if the "expert witness" was not coaxed on what to say for his testimony). True, stun guns are high voltage, but they lack any substancial current. (High uA to low mA's).  I seem to recall that the lethal current to the body is somewhere around 20 mA on up. I can just see the next series of news headlines: "Tweaker found dead with power cord in rectum", or "Meth cook self-inflicts capital punishment on self in homemade electric chair". Oh one more thing:  the police destroyed the sample before it could be requested for reanalysis by a specific method.  How conveniant.  This causes doubt to wether this is not just a case of the employer not wanting to fork over $$$ to the deceased's family.  Do we know if the deceased was also a part time pilot for the military?  That would explain what the vial was doing. Why 78...I just dont know? But the voices said it sounded good
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-05-03 11:32 No 431530				point missed
						The story of the electrocuted man is a curiosity - not more, in vivo generation of meth from ephedrine is plain nonsense - in vivo not post mortem. The much more interesting point which came up is that this electrosynth drama which started as a electrolytic reduction and came out as a crippeled catalytic hydrogenation of the halogenated or esterified feedstock is obviously not such a dead end street as believed. WizardX decided to add the catalyts as it got obvious that the needed voltage would exceed his personal limits for this. As I have another point of view I dislike what resulted from this, the cutting of electrosynthesis at mignon-cell voltage. All self assigned security deputives may go home now - there is no danger that there will result a popular synth out of this. The technical knowledge and effort level is to high to make this attractive for the fearless youth and mindless elders. Stop! Deputives! Not homebound are you! Go here: Post 431330 (Glacial_Refluxer: "Any reason why this would not work?", Stimulants) Here you can live out your protectiveness! This synth is simple, does probably work and is endangering health and life of cook and others. Are we having fun yet?
		simonsays7 (Hive Bee) 05-05-03 18:43 No 431569				Back in the days
						Before the push pull was mentioned and before meth was made by swis.  Simon took at trip to the other coast to "watch" a cook make Meth using I Rp E and dh20.  It was a modified push pull that worked but yields suffered because it was a fast hot dry rxn.  The point of this is that she gave me on floppy several recipes that she claimed worked...I believed her, no reason not to. So Swis posted a recipe here on the Hive and naturally it was killed.. The reaction from memory used 1 large glass pot about 5 gallon size 3/4 filled with dh20.  A clay pot set inside the glass pot 3/4 filled with electrolytes.  Rods placed in the clay pot in series and a 12 v battery attached somehow.  Like remember this is from memory and it was many many years ago.  Here is the reason it would not be tried my swis.  One pound of E was added to the mix and 12 hours later the water  was based and extracted with ether.  Yields were 80 90%. She said that she and her mentor came back after about 6 hours and saw that the battery charger had died and they plugged it in into the wall and left.  After another few more hours extracted for the same good yields. Please flame all you want this is from memory and if this is of any interest the floppy is still around somewhere.  Of course Swis asked why this isn't done all the time instead of red p i e and she said it was too dangerous keeping one pound of dope around in Sacramento/AKA methworld. With the precursor e as hard to get as it is now and this working only with a pound this recipe is still out of reach. One pound of precursor why only one pound or more?   The rods I believe were obtainable from a welding supply or hardware store if memory serves.
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 05-06-03 01:38 No 431642				Stun Guns
						Stun Guns have high voltage 50-60K volts, BUT VERY SMALL amps. High volts and amps KILL YOU. http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public/StunGuns/dazer.htm http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public/StunGuns/index.html
		badbody (Hive Bee) 05-06-03 18:20 No 431759				Do not try this!!!/ Historical archive
						Would anyone knowlegeable care to disect and debunk, or modify this old text??? Do not try this. I cannot personally comment on the validity or safety of the following transscription.  Mercury is very toxic and should not be carelessly handled.  The link is very old and not valid anymore.  Oh yeah, don't kill the messenger. Http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/Alley/8732/eer.txt Subject:    Electrolytic Ephedrine to Meth Breakthru From:     Nobody@lycaeum.org  (Anonymous Sender) Date:     1997/04/14 Message-Id: <199704140513.XAA14638@shaman.lycaeum.org> Newsgroups: alt.drugs.chemistry.rec.drugs.chemistry The process has been proven on a very small scale, but could be scaled up to gigantic proportions. --------------------------------------------------------- Apparatus: Purchase a clay pot and using GE Silicone II plug up the bottom hole; and coat the bottom 1/2 inch of the pot with the silicone. Purchase a tupperware container of the same depth as the pot and large enough in diameter to set the pot in the middle with room around the outside for the electrolyte. Purchasse a box of lead wire approx 1/4 inch diameter as sold in fishing supply stores. Purchase a 110VAC 10A max variac.  Construct a rectifier using a bridge rectifier so that the variac output is converted to DC.  Put a 0-10A meter in the rectifier box.  Put two wires with the large alligator clips on it for the DC output. Purchase a few feet of teflon insulated wire, at least 32 ga. --------------- Chemicals Needed: Utter simplicity-  Ephedrine/pseudoephedrine chloride or sulfate.  Hydrochloric or Sulfuric acid.  Mercury.  Mercury can be bought from mining or rockhound supply stores, or salvaged out of old electrical relays.  Or from your friendly chemical resale house who will probabally soon be selling it.  :) ------------ Process: Add mercury to the clay pot.  Just enough is needed to cover the bottom surface. Put the clay pot in the middle of the tupperware container.  Prepare a mixture of ephedrine salt and dilute acid  (either HCl or H2SO4) and fill the pot to within 1 inch of top. Fill the outer tupperware container with dilute acid to within 1 inch of the top. Make the positive (anode) electrode by spiraling the lead wire around the outside of the tupperware container to make a complete circle, and then hang it over the edge so the clip can make contact. Scrape 1/2 in insulation off the teflon wire and immerse it in the mercury.  Make ceertain the electrolyte only contacts the insulation.  This is the negative electrode (cathode). Hook the anode to the + or positive clamp from the rectifier and hook the cathode to the - or negative clamp. --------------- Slowly adjust the variac so that the meter registers 4A.  Be careful not to touch the terminals since one side is at the hot side of the AC line. Wait a while, and adjust the variac to (sic) that there is vigorous bubbling, het no boiling of the cathodic liquid. After 6-12 hours, stop the process. The liquid inside the pot is a solution of methamphetamine salt. ----------------------- Note, the process also works for converting psychedelic nitrostyrenes or B-nitro-safrole to the amine.  Alcohol and acetic acid will be needed to dissolve acid and olefin. Ever filled shotgun slugs with mercury?
		invasivefungoids (Stranger) 05-07-03 20:10 No 431972				now what?
						ok- so swim made some salt water and dumped 1.5 g's of psudo into the little pimento jar.  Then swim took a 12 volt, 10 amp car battery charger and hooked a small aluminum rod to each alligator clip of the charger.  Swim put a piece of wood and laid it across the top of the jar so the 2 leads wouldn't touch and immersed both rods into the solution.  The black rod bubbled white, the red rod bubbled orange.  After about 45 mins swim removed the leads not only beacause he figured it was done, but beacuse the red rod was getting ate up and leaving grey stuff in the bottom of the jar.  He filtered the water and added some muriatic and then basified w/ lye like a complete dumbass remembering only too late what happened last time he put a foil ball in lye water to see what would happen.  He did notice that whatever sides he placed the leads in the jar, it looked like the stuff would go towards the red lead first, then push to the black lead.  Should swim acidify the post electro-mush and basify?  He dried some of the water, but it just tasted like salt.
		grokstar (Hive Bee) 05-08-03 05:10 No 432052				you should have
						post reaction filter the mush,  basify,  then extract with NP Spirits of earth bring unto me
		invasivefungoids (Stranger) 05-09-03 20:45 No 432372				yea good idea
						Swim replaced the positive lead aluminum bar w/ a magnesium bar that did nicely w/ the lye and yes--it (the dope) crackled back on foil. brute force--yeah!
		amalgum (Hive Bee) 05-09-03 21:37 No 432380				So what exactly are you saying?
						So what exactly are you saying?  Have you made actuall success, or are you smoking pseudo?  How about a detailed writeup?
		MnkyBoy78 (Hive Bee) 05-09-03 23:12 No 432390				Yes...Do give a write up on the procedure.
						Yes...Do give a write up on the procedure. Why 78...I just dont know? But the voices said it sounded good
		halfkast (Newbee) 05-10-03 01:57 No 432402				Is there a technical term for brute-force?
						Is there a technical term for brute-force? The patent details the ampere density, but how crucial is the voltage, the reaction mechanism WizardX? As far as side reactions and the wrong mechanism occuring? Can HCl be used in place of H2SO4 as the electrolyte? Isotonic saline and the preparation of the electrolyte? Organikum you said that the divided cell would be needed to prevent electrical arc alone, is there another reason for it? Electrochemistry Dictionary http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/dict.htm Post 173302 (BlueThumb: "Worlocks Electro Method", Newbee Forum) Worlocks method sounds similar to the patent. rushed post sorry
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-10-03 04:47 No 432426				your first class link answers your question...
						But for it´s a so a first class link an new to me: The answer is quite simple: For reduction occurs on the cathode and oxidation on the anode it is useful to restrict the the compound to be reduced to the cathodic part of a divided cell. Therefore a cell divider/diaphragma/separator is used. Thats the short version. The long version is to find in thick books.... ORG britzel bratzel
		invasivefungoids (Stranger) 05-10-03 05:49 No 432430				Swim's insignificant dabblings...
						Swim's last attempt at jolting the piss outta some psuedo was greeted w/ positive results.  Swim simply boils salt into water.  He crushes his pills and puts them in 3x volume of water and dries them on the stovetop.  While the pill mass is still hot he dumps a little 91% isopropyl on them , swirls the pan, and dumps the top layer into the sink.  Swim dries the pills and dumps them in the boiled salt water in a small pimento jar.  His last attempt was 1.5 g's of psuedo in about a cup of water/excess salt solution.  Swim clipped a small aluminum bar to the black alligator clip of a 12.6 volt/10 amp car battery charger.  Then swim attaches a magnesium bar to the red side because the magnesium will break off and corrode into the water when the power is on and magnesium doesn't react w/ lye like aluminum does.  He ran this last one for only 10 minutes and the finished result still tasted a little like psuedo and crackled slowly on foil w/ a glossy top layer like a hybrid.  As the stuff is being jolted, the black side will bubble like soda and make white bubbles, the red side will bubble and this thick shit will form on top of the water.  Oh yea and swim put a wooden candle stick on top of the jar sideways and taped the leads to opposite sides of the jar so as not to intersect.  After it is done (minutes? still working)  Drop some muriatic into the gooey water and pour into a jar.  Add lye and coleman and gas.  2nd attempt so far and only half and half.  Still pretty cool and very easy. Incomprehensible in pig latin means Great!
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-10-03 09:49 No 432455				If thus worked
						nobody would have fucked around with palladium ingots and lambskin condoms. 12 Volt are not high voltage and for suren wouldn´t have made WizardX not publish it. REALITY CHECK ! Disclosed is: - the elctroreduction works with (much) higher voltage as thought. - posted are examples to synths with 110Volt and divided cell design - the voltage determines the reaction to work, the current determines how fast it will work. Also if someone is convinced to have produced meth in a undivided cell at 12 Volts - it is not true. Sorry. And on this way no meth will be produced also if the voltage is turned up and up - only dead wannabee cooks. There is a little more to get right - electrolytes, temperature, etc. And also then it will need very clean precursor to work - thats common to all electrosynths. And now go and apply for the "Darwins Award"
		halfkast (Newbee) 05-10-03 13:22 No 432472				invasivefungoids, how certain are you that the
						invasivefungoids, how certain are you that the charger is putting out 12.6volts man? Well done too if you did dream about it. Organikum thanks for the simple explanation, mustve been quite a task for ya!. It wasn't my first class link, but it is first class, I found it in the newbee forum during a quick search; enjoy though. The reason I asked for a technical term for brute-force electolysis is because kWs of power seems one thing, but 110v@15A seems another, itll still KILL YOU though. What is said upthread about the in vivo production of meth being just an incidentental curiosity is right, but the use of kVs is part of that. nothing like that is required. I doubt 110Vs is the minimum required, its just the US household standard, hu hu oz ownz 240, your lucky a damn brute force electrometh is even possible up there.   it would be good to know what the minimum voltage is. Why, I'm definetly going to dream this. I sense fears or noses being turned up at this being studied. Theres lots of dangers, especially for newbees who are too hasty, but most of this stuff is dangerous for newbees. Its not a replacement for learning real chemistry either. Rhodium posted it just for amusement then? Maybee he wants a lot more help on his site, a lot more concentration.
		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 05-11-03 19:54 No 432673				Novelty article
						Rhodium posted it just for amusement then? Yes, mostly. The experimental details in the article were too vague to be of any actual use. Maybee he wants a lot more help on his site, a lot more concentration. That's very true.
		invasivefungoids 05-11-03 22:48				So the fuck what? (Rated as: insignificant)
		halfkast (Hive Bee) 05-12-03 22:17 No 432856				rhodium lol OK I've been convinced it's a bad...
						rhodium lol OK I've been convinced it's a bad idea. Not a bad idea, well actually yes it is just a bad idea with the power required, and not enough references. But a good fun read all the same.
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 05-13-03 04:07 No 432900				Anode oxidation of Ephedrine (Rated as: excellent)
						Anode oxidation of Ephedrine or Controlled Oxidation of Ephedrine gives a cyclization oxidation of Ephedrine called Hydroazomethine. Anode oxidation of Ephedrine. Further oxidation gives Azomethine. The oxidation of Ephedrine with potassium permanganate to synthesize Methcathinone also brings about Azomethine. The Azomethine compound is formed as a minor by-product, when Methcathinone condenses with itself when oxidized with potassium permanganate. The temperature is above 25-30 degC. The higher the temperature, the greater is the minor by-product Azomethine and the oxidative cleaverage (also known as degradation) of Azomethine, Methcathinone if an excess of potassium permanganate is used. High Pressure Reductive Cleaverage of Azomethine or Hydroazomethine, at 100-150 atmospheres at 90-180 degC gives Methamphetamine in good yields 60-64% Also the electrochemical reduction of the quartinary salt gives Dimethylamphetamine. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/WizardX/X1/azometh.html
		xboXer (Hive Bee) 05-17-03 23:15 No 433793				I do believe
						The amount of stored energy in a car battery can electrocute you, so do bee careful. As a matter of fact, a tiny jolt of a.c. (less than 110 v) has been known to kill by interrupting the electrical impulses in the heart. That is why on electrical projects etc. it is always prudent and wise to keep ONE hand in a pocket to prevent any current from traveling across the heart. (from one hand to the other) When a massive charge of electricity  conducts to ground through a human body, both the entry point and the exit point are charred in the process. SO? So BBBBBBBBZZZZZZNNNNNTTTT! instant carbon electrodes. Wanna catch a buzz? Once a dick always a dick. Once a bitch, well why do ya ask why he's a dick?
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-21-03 02:21 No 434447				not novelty article
						Rhodium, you sell this idea short. The details they gave in the short abstract is more than enough to get someone reasonably skilled at doing electric synths going on the right path. It's not like they were publishing an optimized technique, just a road to follow...
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-21-03 04:37 No 434495				what about you UF?
						A working electrolytic reduction from UF after the last one wasn´t realy electrolytic and not to 100% satisfying?
		dwarfer (esoteric) 05-21-03 20:26 No 434605				olden days
						Back when Wor and Dwar were dickin' with this, there was a young punk named "Sky" or "Skye" who swore he was makin', with a 12 V battery and red-hot leads from the current density. I never believed him, and still don't.  but my sneer has lost it's sharp-edged nuance. dwarfer
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-22-03 00:10 No 434643				I love a challenge
						Sounds to me like this project could give new zest to my dull daily routine...I think 18 V is a good range to start fooling around in, and I will let you know what happens.
		invasivefungoids (Stranger) 05-23-03 06:10 No 434901				Swim's leg's are no longer white.
						Good morning to swim's fellow bee's, and fuck off to swim's gaggle of stifling naysayers.  Amberjack anyone?  Swim has recently been focusing his energy on the "motherland" of iodine and ravaging the fuck out of some jumbo shrimp.  On his return trip he realized that the dea website wasn't bullshitting when they state to swim and his fellow taxpaying citizens who haven't been incarcerated yet, that they surveille known websites in order to best determine by "region" suitable tactics to deter illicit activities.  All of this gregarianism to say- CHA-CHING!!  Roadtrips can be fun and definately aid in enlarging one's smile from a 50 unit to a 1cc shit eatin' grin in a hurry.  What was swim saying?      Jolting the piss outta salt water and pooh-doe works.  How does swim know it's 12.6 volts?  Well, how does curious bee know his shoes are really nike's?  And if yours are, then swim got jacked.  Swim has no clue whether the bold black lettering is truth or fiction on his car battery charger.  Ask the dude who decided exactly how much measuring a volt would perform.  Ya'll wig out over shit that our ancestors just made up out of thin air.  What the fuck is a volt to a squirrel?  And no, swim isn't bombing on whoever asked that, if in fact it was a person and you bee's aren't just a really neat interactive game designed to incarcerate those who dabble in alternate states-heh.  All swim is amplifying is that he was simply communicating in relative terms the actions that he dreamt and the results of those actions.  Take 'em or leave 'em.  Swim has many acorns to bury before winter. WoodChuck to GreySqurirrel...
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-31-03 00:04 No 436667				Lit review
						I should charge for this, but here is my dig through my lit collection...(just kidding)... anodic oxidation of ephedrine Chem Pharm Bull vol28 p.1619-22 (1980) anodic oxidation of ephedrine yields benzaldehyde, methylamine, and acetaldehyde. That would be a good reaction to run backwards at the cathode. In their previous work cited in the text they burned meth at the anode and got tar. Makin' meth.. Tet Letters #23 p.2157-60 (1979) Selective reduction of alcohol group to alkane by electroreduction They converted the alcohol to methanesulfonic acid ester, and reduced at low voltage in high yield. Electric reduction of benzyl alcohol to alkane J. Electrochem. Soc Vol.106 #4 p.325-27 By using quaternary ammonium compound as electrolyte, they got reduction to alkane at low voltage. When other electrolytes were used, no reduction was noted at lower voltages. They got high yields. Current flow .02 A per cm2. Various Org Syn recipes(if you want I can cite them) No reduction of benzyl alcohol groups in dilute sulfuric at about .1 to .2 amps per cm. High overvoltage metals like lead or (yuk) mercury were used as cathodes.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-31-03 03:55 No 436708				Let's pile on some more
						I was just getting heavily interested in this field when I became parent to my kids. Try it and you will see how it changes around your time allocation priorities. In effect, your life becomes sucked into their's, and it becomes one. It's hard to explain if you haven't been there. Let's get on with the show...Org Syn Coll Vol 3 p. 60 o-aminobenzyl alcohol. In sulfuric acid at lead cathode and .1 amps per cm squared face, no reduction of benzyl alcohol. I've got lots more in my file...
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 05-31-03 11:18 No 436762				"quarternary ammonium compound..."
						Don´t be be so nasty. Tell us what fucking quarternary salt it was. You find the name in your file exactly where you wrote in your post "magic compound I don´t tell". thanks ORG good refs btw. UF no! no! not the protonation!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-31-03 15:06 No 436785				I'd bet any of them would work...
						The quaternary ammonium compounds they used were tetrabutylammonium iodide and tetramethylammonium iodide. Quaternary ammonium compound solutions are available off the shelf as waterbed conditioner or cow teat wash if you are looking for a really concentrated solution.
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 06-01-03 09:10 No 436940				elctrochemically coupling
						The first reference backwards reminds me strongly on the Grignard where benzylmagnesiumchloride + imine from the condensation of methylamine and acetaldehyde give meth and if done wrong some poison. Perhaps the formation of the poison is to avoid in a electroreduction? Nevertheless this calls probably for some dissolving metal electrodes I guess (realy just a guess...). But it would be a real winner (except one needs again the foreskin of some extinct lifeform from planet Xphobia....) But on the interchangability of the ammoniumsalts I am not so optimistic. no! no! not the protonation!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-02-03 02:55 No 437107				fanciful musing
						The idea that the reaction could run backward at the cathode was just a hopeful fantasy on my part. I have no evidence to suggest it would work. As to dissolving anodes, I haven't come by any recipes where they were actually used other than to put the metal in the anode in solution. If the solution is mostly water, I like those Kling Tite condoms because they have such low electrical resistance. When using ceramics, one often needs dangerous levels of voltage to get current flowing, especially if the ceramic isn't thoroughly wetted throughout its internal pores. That Kling Tite is just so simple...
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 06-02-03 03:49 No 437117				A Ceramic or Alundum porous cup
						The reduction is carried out in four cells of the type shown in Fig. 2. Each cell consists of a 1-l. beaker (B), a porous cup (P), a mechanical stirrer, and sheet lead electrodes (E1 and E2) each having a total surface area of 100 sq. cm. (Note 1). In the cathode space of each cell are placed 25 g. (0.18 mole) of anthranilic acid (Note 2) and 400 ml. of 15% sulfuric acid. In each porous cup is placed 200 ml. of 15% sulfuric acid. The cells are connected in series as shown in Fig. 5 with an ammeter (A) and suitable resistance (R) (Note 3) also in the circuit. http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv3p0060 The condom will not survive the reaction because of the HEAT. That why they use a Ceramic or Alundum porous (aluminium oxide) cup.
		ballzofsteel (Miss High & Mighty) 06-02-03 08:29 No 437158				Off topic,But whilst the electro kings are jiving.
						Off topic,so shoot me. O.k,If im not mistaken,someone has finaly told me that the current needed to produce HI from H20/I2 and power in catholyte of a divided cell,will not harm my ephedrine in any way,but is likely to help in its reduction... Why couldnt we just rig up a cell for HI production(not easy,but easier than whats described)using I2,h2o,electrolyte,and a suitable ion exchange membrane, and simply add ephedrine in the cathodic chamber????? Oxygen from goes to anode,hydrogen to cathode were it hooks up with I2 to form HI,HI does its think with ephedrine whilst under the influence of Electricity,and liberated I2 hooks up with more liberated H2 from H20/Electrolyte to form more HI.Pressure of some level. The mechanics seem not too different from the halo-intermediate hydrogenation fester speaks of,(except it would be formed in the same pot as the reduction takes place,just like any HI reduction),or is it that Im way off the mark when it comes to understanding Festers ideas??? Im sure carbon could replace palladium(not in function,only in presence) Go on,set ballz straight for once. C,mon wizz kids,For once,tell me WHY it wont work please. I know this is not an electrolytic reduction,nor is it a funky catalystic Hydrogenation, more like your basic HI reduction with some zap. Heat is generated,carbon cathode might be used to help dissasociate HI. What functions have I left out? Ill shut up now.
		Organikum (Hive Addict) 06-02-03 09:59 No 437178				An electrochemical Grignard substitute....
						(without tetrabutylwhatdoIknow-electrolytes) would be much more of interest as the ephedrine reduction as HI or sodium birch are not to beat in simplicity and yields,thats reality. There will be such electroreactions, but I am not qualified to dig them up I admit. The handling of voltage isn´t the problem I believe - who is able to construct a cell will manage the voltage also. Who has the desire to grill himself will do so - either with HI, NH3 or electricity. I hope this little hint will not be unheard by the masters of the power plug. Not readymade reactions are what I hope for - the direction is enough, a point of entry.....? And if not, doesn´t matter. Enough to discover in the world of the hot tubes. no! no! not the protonation!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-03-03 17:11 No 437570				the biggest source of heat
						In that cell described from Org Syn, the biggest source of heating in the solution is the resistance given by the ceramic cup itself. It functions in effect like a heating element. In the elctroplating biz I often just pour current through the solutions, and while they do heat up, their resistance is low enough that simple precautions and crude cooling efforts keep the solution within the proper range for hours at a time. No cell dividers are used in these situations, so there isn't that source of resistance. As to making HI electrically, at the anode, iodides in solution would oxidize to I2. The cathode produces base as part of its process, while the anode makes acid. I'm not sure if it could be made to work.
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 06-04-03 02:42 No 437685				Electroplating
						UncleFester: I'm sure that the "electro plating biz", does not use 110 V @ 15 amps.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-04-03 04:39 No 437703				you are damned right!
						We don't use AC except to run the recifiers which then put out DC. The electroplating biz uses voltage ranges (measured versus standard calomel electrode) which are in the same range as all the organic electrochem reactions. For our purposes we use recifiers which put out 12 to 15 volts DC max, and that max range is for pushing large amounts of current to big parts from anodes of finite size. The current draw used in the more typical situation is supplied with 6 to 9 volts. Then, in the Org Syn recipe, to get a roughly minus 1 or maybe two volts vSCE at the cathode through the ceramic divider they have to use an 80 volt current source. That's where all that lost energy goes... heating the ceramic divider. The Org Syn recipe is very similar to the clandestine post put up earlier in this thread. No reduction of the benzyl alcohol occcured at this current and therefore volts versus SCE range. I have other examples in my files. That's why I think the clandestine post is bunk. I'm quite willing to be proven wrong on this point, the point being that the benzyl alcohol of ephedrine will reduce at this range, but I know that ceramic dividers take 80 volts, turn it into one or two volts vSCE at the cathode, and just make a load of heat in the process. In mainly water solutions, I would prefer membrane dividers.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-04-03 04:46 No 437705				perhaps I misunderstood...
						To get thousands of amps from those rectifiers on big parts we use 480 V current to feed the rectifiers. That's just a matter of economics. In my lab, my small rectifier runs on house current and pushes out 15 volts max, and around 10 amps max before the wires start smoking...
		tweeky666 (Stranger) 11-23-03 05:03 No 472624				welders?
						has anyone had the thought to use a welder to reach the desired voltage???
		Jacked 11-23-03 22:04				org (Rated as: insignificant)
		jose 11-27-03 12:33				Jacked, that's still no excuse.. (Rated as: off-topic)
		halfkast 11-27-03 18:51				I'm not certain your so enthusiastic about... (Rated as: insignificant)
		Organikum 11-27-03 20:36				whatever you ask for (Rated as: insignificant)
		Jacked 11-27-03 20:39				that's a good argument (Rated as: insignificant)
		Organikum 11-27-03 21:07				thats what I wanted to express (Rated as: insignificant)
		Jacked 11-27-03 21:28				sorry (Rated as: insignificant)
		halfkast 11-27-03 22:34				hilarious (Rated as: off-topic)
		WizardX (Wizard Master) 11-29-03 00:01 No 473696				High Voltage
						Organikum stated: and actually I dont know how this exactly might work with high voltages as proposed by the wiz. All I'm going to say on this topic is this. It does work at HIGH VOLTAGES (I'm not even prepared to give you a numeral figure of the voltage required) as I can see bees experimenting at that high voltage. The yield is around 42% + or -, with many by-products via side-reactions. This yield is ONLY obtained by removing O2 from the solvent and displacing O2 with He in the reaction vessel. O2 + High Voltage <==> O3 Ozone
		halfkast (Hive Addict) 11-29-03 05:31 No 473724				it's because you know any visitor has the...
						it's because you know any visitor has the immediate capacity to plug a socket in and submerge two exposed live wires in to an aqueous solution, isn't it Wiz? wasn't my first guess though believe me. oops, would've killed a few with the first two. Supreme Wiz, really. True genius and presence of mind. grouch You don't need 2 Bee High to follow the goings-on @The-Hive--Just Addikted!
		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 11-29-03 13:14 No 473757				duh
						any visitor has the immediate capacity to plug a socket in and submerge two exposed live wires in to an aqueous solution Alternating Current is not exactly the best kind of juice for electrosyntheses...
		halfkast 11-30-03 10:30				duh, I didn't exactly say it was effective... (Rated as: insignificant)
		Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 11-30-03 14:49 No 473900				halfkast, your bullshit is becoming annoying.
						halfkast, your bullshit is becoming annoying. I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate. http://www.antiwar.com
		bbob 12-04-03 04:43				here here (Rated as: redundant)

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