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All 13 posts Subject: Reducing alcohols with electricity Please login to post Down

levo
10-10-04 18:50
      Reducing alcohols with electricity
(Rated as: Use Paragraphs!!!)

Scottydog
(Hive Addict)
10-11-04 01:08
No 535258
User Picture       The Electro Equation

Would the equation to establish theoretical running time (rxn duration) bee the same, when oxidizing phenylalanine to d-amphetamine (with electricity) ala "kolbe"?

Refuse/Resist

WizardX
(Wizard Master)
10-11-04 07:21
No 535312
User Picture       Electrochemistry Software

levo: I suggest you get this program if you want to learn about electrochemistry.

Electrochemistry Software POLAROGRAPH 5.4 http://www.drhuang.com/chemistry/index.htm

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
10-11-04 10:29
No 535323
      These equatations are theoretical for a ...

These equatations are theoretical for a perfect world and ideal conditions. As we dont have a perfect world with ideal conditions they are only useful for to tell the MINIMUM amount of electricity needed in such a reaction.

Overreduction is nonsense and a divided cell was used always. Think about this.

- References tell that the sulfuric acid ester is the best reducible one.
- A lately surfaced japanese patent tells that reduction in sulfuric acid as electrolyte and using lead electrodes works for chloroephedrine. I propose it will work better with the sulfuric acid ester.
- Forming the sulfuric acid ester in good yields is the actual problem.

Question:
Is there a way to form the sulfuric acid ester of (pseudo)ephedrine electrolytically or by another way than the one which is described on Rhodiums page which suffers from bad yields (~10g ester from 20g ephedrine IIRC)?

so near, so far......

java
(Hive Addict)
10-11-04 16:11
No 535358
User Picture       Re: Driving the current in Phenylalanine to Amph..

I would like to follow up Scottydog inquiry on Phenylalanine. It's well known that the ester of Phenylalanine can be achived with a reflux in methanol with some HCl. Hence this conversion doesn't suffer from low yields, it would be interesting to see if the reduction of the ester to the hydrocarbon is possible in this case. From the onset it would probably take more current to remove it being an ester of a primary alcohol.......java

It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees...Emiliano Zapata

Prepuce
(Hive Bee)
10-12-04 03:05
No 535454
User Picture       Dear Moderator. . .
(Rated as: Read the FAQ!)

Can't an offending poster simply be warned about his format? Must the post be entirely deleted?

thanks,
PP

Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
10-12-04 13:25
No 535525
User Picture       It isn't deleted

It isn't deleted, it can be accessed by clicking the subject line: https://www.the-hive.ws/forum/faq.pl?Cat=#karma

^{The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders}

dwarfer
(esoteric)
10-14-04 01:51
No 535735
User Picture       well, maybe???

ASS-suming that my
presumption in Post 535732 (dwarfer: "A REAL LIVE Failure! YeS!", Stimulants) that the microwave heating
of a lewis acid ZnCl2/HCl greatly raised it's
chlorinating effects..

(a speculative matter to be sure..)

then perhaps the same situation may occur with
H2SO4 in a microwave??

Who (k)nose? wink

Easy trial, yeah?

And Orgy is the "King of the Microwaves":
get busy.. ":<) smile

dwarfer

Organikum
(Wonderful Personality)
10-14-04 09:09
No 535793
      Maybe, but not my business anymore.

Maybe, but not my business anymore.

What I assume is this:
- ZnCl2/HCl forms a complex zinc-acid which chlorinates the alcohol (says the "Gattermann"). The right ratios and microwaving will push the reaction into the wanted direction.
- Adding more Zn after the chlorination and nuking it will reduce the chloroephedrine, how complete this reduction occurs is unknown to me.

But (pseudo)ephedrine reduction is somehow boring, the P/I and the Birch, two almost quantitative reactions are available, what do you want more?

so near, so far......

java
(Hive Addict)
10-15-04 03:30
No 535908
User Picture       REf: Info on Electro -Reduction of Alcohols

Near the end of this thread there is information as to the electro method of reduction of benzylic type alcohols ,(psudo)ephedrine, that may be of interest to readers of this thread..........java

Post 243470 (epistemologicide: "Re: Hydrogenation Question", Chemistry Discourse)

there is also some info here.....

Post 386506 (Tengo: "electroreduction of chloro-E using NiMH", Stimulants)

It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees...Emiliano Zapata

WizardX
(Wizard Master)
11-08-04 10:03
No 540390
User Picture       Electrochemical Cells

Those of you interested in Electrochemistry, download this software (and serial) with my updated reaction *.dat files for more reactions. The *.dat files are just a start and I'll include more electrochemical inorganic and organic reactions in due time.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/WizardX/apps/eccells.zip

Example.

nightshade
(Newbee)
11-08-04 18:07
No 540458
      Wizard master I can't seem to be able to get...

Wizard master I can't seem to be able to get on toyour site is there some trick or is something wrong?

TheHitMan
(Newbee)
11-08-04 19:53
No 540464
      Copy the link, then paste it into a new web...

Copy the link, then paste it into a new web window and click Go.

It should then ask you if you wish to open the file, or save it to your hard drive.

	https://the-hive.archive.erowid.org	the-hive@erowid.org



Powdered by Nemesis^® Version 5.13 alpha, Copyright 2021 - 2022, PsychoSoft Enterprises Society. Patents pending.
Links Erowid Rhodium

	All 13 posts		Subject: Reducing alcohols with electricity		Please login to post		Down


		levo 10-10-04 18:50				Reducing alcohols with electricity (Rated as: Use Paragraphs!!!)



		Scottydog (Hive Addict) 10-11-04 01:08 No 535258				The Electro Equation
						Would the equation to establish theoretical running time (rxn duration) bee the same, when oxidizing phenylalanine to d-amphetamine (with electricity) ala "kolbe"? Refuse/Resist



		WizardX (Wizard Master) 10-11-04 07:21 No 535312				Electrochemistry Software
						levo: I suggest you get this program if you want to learn about electrochemistry. Electrochemistry Software POLAROGRAPH 5.4 http://www.drhuang.com/chemistry/index.htm



		Organikum (Wonderful Personality) 10-11-04 10:29 No 535323				These equatations are theoretical for a ...
						These equatations are theoretical for a perfect world and ideal conditions. As we dont have a perfect world with ideal conditions they are only useful for to tell the MINIMUM amount of electricity needed in such a reaction. Overreduction is nonsense and a divided cell was used always. Think about this. - References tell that the sulfuric acid ester is the best reducible one. - A lately surfaced japanese patent tells that reduction in sulfuric acid as electrolyte and using lead electrodes works for chloroephedrine. I propose it will work better with the sulfuric acid ester. - Forming the sulfuric acid ester in good yields is the actual problem. Question: Is there a way to form the sulfuric acid ester of (pseudo)ephedrine electrolytically or by another way than the one which is described on Rhodiums page which suffers from bad yields (~10g ester from 20g ephedrine IIRC)? so near, so far......



		java (Hive Addict) 10-11-04 16:11 No 535358				Re: Driving the current in Phenylalanine to Amph..
						I would like to follow up Scottydog inquiry on Phenylalanine. It's well known that the ester of Phenylalanine can be achived with a reflux in methanol with some HCl. Hence this conversion doesn't suffer from low yields, it would be interesting to see if the reduction of the ester to the hydrocarbon is possible in this case. From the onset it would probably take more current to remove it being an ester of a primary alcohol.......java It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees...Emiliano Zapata



		Prepuce (Hive Bee) 10-12-04 03:05 No 535454				Dear Moderator. . . (Rated as: Read the FAQ!)
						Can't an offending poster simply be warned about his format? Must the post be entirely deleted? thanks, PP



		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 10-12-04 13:25 No 535525				It isn't deleted
						It isn't deleted, it can be accessed by clicking the subject line: https://www.the-hive.ws/forum/faq.pl?Cat=#karma ^{The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders}



		dwarfer (esoteric) 10-14-04 01:51 No 535735				well, maybe???
						ASS-suming that my presumption in Post 535732 (dwarfer: "A REAL LIVE Failure! YeS!", Stimulants) that the microwave heating of a lewis acid ZnCl2/HCl greatly raised it's chlorinating effects.. (a speculative matter to be sure..) then perhaps the same situation may occur with H2SO4 in a microwave?? Who (k)nose? Easy trial, yeah? And Orgy is the "King of the Microwaves": get busy.. ":<) dwarfer



		Organikum (Wonderful Personality) 10-14-04 09:09 No 535793				Maybe, but not my business anymore.
						Maybe, but not my business anymore. What I assume is this: - ZnCl2/HCl forms a complex zinc-acid which chlorinates the alcohol (says the "Gattermann"). The right ratios and microwaving will push the reaction into the wanted direction. - Adding more Zn after the chlorination and nuking it will reduce the chloroephedrine, how complete this reduction occurs is unknown to me. But (pseudo)ephedrine reduction is somehow boring, the P/I and the Birch, two almost quantitative reactions are available, what do you want more? so near, so far......



		java (Hive Addict) 10-15-04 03:30 No 535908				REf: Info on Electro -Reduction of Alcohols
						Near the end of this thread there is information as to the electro method of reduction of benzylic type alcohols ,(psudo)ephedrine, that may be of interest to readers of this thread..........java Post 243470 (epistemologicide: "Re: Hydrogenation Question", Chemistry Discourse) there is also some info here..... Post 386506 (Tengo: "electroreduction of chloro-E using NiMH", Stimulants) It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees...Emiliano Zapata



		WizardX (Wizard Master) 11-08-04 10:03 No 540390				Electrochemical Cells
						Those of you interested in Electrochemistry, download this software (and serial) with my updated reaction .dat files for more reactions. The .dat files are just a start and I'll include more electrochemical inorganic and organic reactions in due time. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/WizardX/apps/eccells.zip Example.



		nightshade (Newbee) 11-08-04 18:07 No 540458				Wizard master I can't seem to be able to get...
						Wizard master I can't seem to be able to get on toyour site is there some trick or is something wrong?



		TheHitMan (Newbee) 11-08-04 19:53 No 540464				Copy the link, then paste it into a new web...
						Copy the link, then paste it into a new web window and click Go. It should then ask you if you wish to open the file, or save it to your hard drive.

All 13 posts	End of thread	Top