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All 7 posts Subject: Freebase and HCL Please login to post Down

tao
(Hive Bee)
11-12-04 18:52
No 541266
      Freebase and HCL

With any given drug or chemical is the freebase considered a different chemical than the hcl salt?

For example would cocaine be considered a different chemical or drug than crack because it is the hcl salt?

I was under the impression that a salt and freebase were considered the same drug and chemical.

~~Fuck the Birch~~

Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
11-13-04 00:40
No 541308
User Picture       It is the same drug, but not the same chemical

It is the same drug, but not the same chemical. Methamphetamine freebase is for example an oil, while methamphetamine HCl is a crystalline powder. Both have identical effects when ingested.

Read more here about salt basics: https://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/equipment/rextal.a-b.basics.html

^{The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders}

MakoEyes
(Stranger)
11-13-04 06:08
No 541339
      the reason why a Freebase is concitered the...

the reason why a Freebase is concitered the same drug is because when you injest a base it gets reacted with the acid in your body, produceing the good ol acidic and thus water soliable verion of the drug, this is an entirely differant chemical substance than the freebase, but we associate the two as teh same drug becuase they turn into one annohter so easly. HCl isnt the only salt used for coupling either, Hydrobromine (HBr) for instance is annohter, HCL is just the most commen (it also doesnt cause bromine poisioning) hope that cleared up some things

indole_amine
(Hive Bee)
11-13-04 18:20
No 541401
User Picture       other way 'round

No, the reason why all basic drugs are administered as the hydrochloride is their compatibility with your digestive juices. They pass the blood-brain barrier as the freebase though; a reason why certain amphetamines are not active at all (they bear a substitutent making them too lipophobic and rendering them incapable of entering the CNS.
Think about it: crack cocaine is the freebase, and I bet it is pretty damn more active than the hydrochloride - due to its direct availability to the brain (it is basic), supported through the administration route of smoking (the fastest way into the brain through the blood stream)..

The part of the drug that acts on the CNS is always the same; bioavailability is different though. And the freebase and their salts are definitely different chemicals - other molar weight, physical properties etc. tongue . So one can well say that freebase and salt thereof are the same drug, but not the same chemical.

_{indole_amine}

psychokitty
(«»)
11-13-04 18:56
No 541408
      Legally speaking, there is a difference

In terms of the law, crack cocaine and powder cocaine are definitely disproportionate. On a per gram level, the penalties for possession of crack cocaine are considerably higher than those of powder cocaine.

But speaking scientifically, the above facts are based on absolute nonsense. Legislators creating such laws must have it out for crack because they themselves are smoking too much of it.

indole_amine
(Hive Bee)
11-13-04 22:11
No 541431
User Picture       hm

Why? They measure scientifically correct: determining the amount of active drug freebase per gram - of course crack cocaine amounts to more "active substance" per gram than powder cocaine (assuming same purity tongue ), since the hydrochloride doesn't represent a pharmacologically active substance, it is separated. All this is based on the fact that the drug is the same in both forms - but what do I know, maybe the US of A have some famous law that declares rock and powder cocaine as different acting drugs...
(where I live, same drug is same freebase is equally bad, and you become sentenced for posessing a certain amount of "freebase" meth/coke/whatever AFAIK - no matter how nice the shards may have been. laugh But that's just one country out of many.. tongue

_{indole_amine}

Rhodium
(Chief Bee)
11-14-04 03:04
No 541478
User Picture       once in the bloodstream, they no longer differ...

No, the reason why all basic drugs are administered as the hydrochloride is their compatibility with your digestive juices.

That sentence makes no sense. There is simply no difference between ingesting equimolar amounts of cocaine freebase, cocaine hydrochloride or cocaine phosphate - all three becomes ionized/protonated to the same degree in the stomach.

Think about it: crack cocaine is the freebase, and I bet it is pretty damn more active than the hydrochloride - due to its direct availability to the brain (it is basic),

Regardless of you inject cocaine hydrochloride or smoke cocaine freebase the drug will look just the same when in the bloodstream on its way to your brain. Freebase cocaine will cross the mucous membranes of your lungs quicker than a salt, but once in the body each molecule doesn't have a personal counterion following it around, the amine will just be protonated to varying degrees depending on the precise pH.

^{The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders}

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	All 7 posts		Subject: Freebase and HCL		Please login to post		Down


		tao (Hive Bee) 11-12-04 18:52 No 541266				Freebase and HCL
						With any given drug or chemical is the freebase considered a different chemical than the hcl salt? For example would cocaine be considered a different chemical or drug than crack because it is the hcl salt? I was under the impression that a salt and freebase were considered the same drug and chemical. ~~Fuck the Birch~~



		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 11-13-04 00:40 No 541308				It is the same drug, but not the same chemical
						It is the same drug, but not the same chemical. Methamphetamine freebase is for example an oil, while methamphetamine HCl is a crystalline powder. Both have identical effects when ingested. Read more here about salt basics: https://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/equipment/rextal.a-b.basics.html ^{The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders}



		MakoEyes (Stranger) 11-13-04 06:08 No 541339				the reason why a Freebase is concitered the...
						the reason why a Freebase is concitered the same drug is because when you injest a base it gets reacted with the acid in your body, produceing the good ol acidic and thus water soliable verion of the drug, this is an entirely differant chemical substance than the freebase, but we associate the two as teh same drug becuase they turn into one annohter so easly. HCl isnt the only salt used for coupling either, Hydrobromine (HBr) for instance is annohter, HCL is just the most commen (it also doesnt cause bromine poisioning) hope that cleared up some things



		indole_amine (Hive Bee) 11-13-04 18:20 No 541401				other way 'round
						No, the reason why all basic drugs are administered as the hydrochloride is their compatibility with your digestive juices. They pass the blood-brain barrier as the freebase though; a reason why certain amphetamines are not active at all (they bear a substitutent making them too lipophobic and rendering them incapable of entering the CNS. Think about it: crack cocaine is the freebase, and I bet it is pretty damn more active than the hydrochloride - due to its direct availability to the brain (it is basic), supported through the administration route of smoking (the fastest way into the brain through the blood stream).. The part of the drug that acts on the CNS is always the same; bioavailability is different though. And the freebase and their salts are definitely different chemicals - other molar weight, physical properties etc. . So one can well say that freebase and salt thereof are the same drug, but not the same chemical. _{indole_amine}



		psychokitty («») 11-13-04 18:56 No 541408				Legally speaking, there is a difference
						In terms of the law, crack cocaine and powder cocaine are definitely disproportionate. On a per gram level, the penalties for possession of crack cocaine are considerably higher than those of powder cocaine. But speaking scientifically, the above facts are based on absolute nonsense. Legislators creating such laws must have it out for crack because they themselves are smoking too much of it.



		indole_amine (Hive Bee) 11-13-04 22:11 No 541431				hm
						Why? They measure scientifically correct: determining the amount of active drug freebase per gram - of course crack cocaine amounts to more "active substance" per gram than powder cocaine (assuming same purity ), since the hydrochloride doesn't represent a pharmacologically active substance, it is separated. All this is based on the fact that the drug is the same in both forms - but what do I know, maybe the US of A have some famous law that declares rock and powder cocaine as different acting drugs... (where I live, same drug is same freebase is equally bad, and you become sentenced for posessing a certain amount of "freebase" meth/coke/whatever AFAIK - no matter how nice the shards may have been. But that's just one country out of many.. _{indole_amine}



		Rhodium (Chief Bee) 11-14-04 03:04 No 541478				once in the bloodstream, they no longer differ...
						No, the reason why all basic drugs are administered as the hydrochloride is their compatibility with your digestive juices. That sentence makes no sense. There is simply no difference between ingesting equimolar amounts of cocaine freebase, cocaine hydrochloride or cocaine phosphate - all three becomes ionized/protonated to the same degree in the stomach. Think about it: crack cocaine is the freebase, and I bet it is pretty damn more active than the hydrochloride - due to its direct availability to the brain (it is basic), Regardless of you inject cocaine hydrochloride or smoke cocaine freebase the drug will look just the same when in the bloodstream on its way to your brain. Freebase cocaine will cross the mucous membranes of your lungs quicker than a salt, but once in the body each molecule doesn't have a personal counterion following it around, the amine will just be protonated to varying degrees depending on the precise pH. ^{The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders}

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