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	All 308 posts		Subject: deconstructionist thought		Please login to post		Down

		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-05-04 00:33 No 499089				deconstructionist thought
						The post reply button on the gassing 60's thread wasn't working so I'm off on a separate line. The polymers which I have seen so far are all acrylics with amide linkages, so it may be worthwhile to just degrade the polymer into its individual units. Some KOH or even NaOH in alcohol and a reflux of an hour or so would produce monomers, and I would bet that none of those monomers would show solubility characteristics identical to psuedoephedrine.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-05-04 03:25 No 499120				unknown gak
						if the linkage is ester, be breakage is easier... if she is fat, the humpage is easier....
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-05-04 05:42 No 499131				Alc & NaOH refluxed
						So presume here that some pseudoE has been initially extracted with say for example isopropanol. Then as a test 50ml of this alcohol is taken and an equal portion of NaOH solution is added to it. This is then refluxed for 4 hours. At a temperature which is determined by eyeballing the look of the reflux within the flask. All this is complete on-the-fly, theoretical guestimating from someone with no legitimate chem background but is it sort of what you had in mind Fester? I haven't yet thought about what further clean up and separation this might entail but just thought I'd throw this out as an intial theoretical response. alias Storkington Pinworm
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 04-05-04 19:08 No 499195				samples of street dope
						I sampled some street dope recently that was rather good by street dope standards. I understand the product was made with pseudo "washed" with a strong lye solution. I have asked to speak with the washer, and will forward any info I receive on the subject. Thought is that the method may have merit, and has been discovered by local cooks. mostly harmless
		embezzler (Hive Addict) 04-05-04 19:17 No 499197				sounds good geez
						but you would have to find out about the source of the eph if it is otc then this could be really promising chemically enhanced.
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 04-05-04 19:23 No 499198				source
						I have no doubt the meth was made from pseudo derived from OTC white 60's that incorporate the new gakks. mostly harmless
		embezzler (Hive Addict) 04-05-04 19:28 No 499200				excellant
						this is prob the best news on the new gaak front if we do break it down as uncle fester suggests i am sure some chromatography would take out the eph chemically enhanced.
		SQUIDIPPY (formless fortitude?) 04-05-04 20:42 No 499217				huh
						But, won't hot NaOh destroy pfed?? S/D has always been under the understanding that it would. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.-Mark Twain
		Newton (Hive Bee) 04-05-04 21:55 No 499234				Stablity of pseudoephedrine in NaOH solutions
						The following statement was taken from  https://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/ephedrineref.html : Ephedrine and pseudo-ephedrine are quite stable compounds. Heating at 100°C for 24 hours causes no decomposition (42, 28). No alteration is observed by heating the bases with 5% sodium hydroxide on the water bath (21). So the stability of pseudo against NaOH solutions shouldnt bee a problem.
		SQUIDIPPY (formless fortitude?) 04-07-04 14:24 No 499519				An experiment was done
						An experiment was done, Some known, new Gak tainted, extracted pfed was dissolved in a small amount of H20, a  100ml of  Xylene was then added. Mixture was gently heated to boil.Gak ball formed and was bouncing around like snot, splitting and dividing and then reforming, in various patterns. Mixture was allowed to cool a bit then some NaOH, was added, (very slowly). Mixture, then turned a deep red to dark orange color, (surprise, surprise). Allowing to cool the mixture then separated it two layers, A cloudy white, upper layer and an orange water, layer. No poly "Form" could be seen. So it appears that the hot NaOH does destroy( at least in part) the polymer. More later!! Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.-Mark Twain
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-09-04 23:40 No 499958				on the previous thread...
						Back on the previous thread (problems gassing 60"s) I discussed the obvious solution of distillation. Its problem is that many people like to work at the scale of a gram to three, and at that scale the base won't even wet the glassware. As to the sublimation finger, it works slowly and in common with the distillation method should have a vacuum source able to pull about 20 mmHg. I have great trouble finding those aspirators in catalogs these days while they used to be commonplace at a very cheap price. Now I find "filtering pumps" which might pull 200 torr... Now back to real business...those other pill gaks...gums and other splooges of botanical origin..waxes and shit...they are polymers with ester linkages....the hot OH could be a one stop snot whacking stop. The rumors of sudo "burn" are real, but it involves reaction between sudo and other pill ingredients with OH under heat...so the question is..."How far back in the extraction can hot OH be applied to simplify the procedure".
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-10-04 01:15 No 499977				to be more direct...
						Look on the label of that gak filled shit....the first couple of listings will be botanical source ester gum and goo...acacia et al...
		embezzler (Hive Addict) 04-11-04 23:59 No 500265				i had a suspicion that
						it wouldnt be as easy as a simple basic(alkaline) reflux they would have provided for that in the design of they newest gaak.stands to reason. i agree in theorey with hammer here that a distillation shoultd work but we dont know shit about the structure or even physical properties of the gaak to be able to decide what conditions the distillation should be done under. the size of the reaction does little to alleviate the problem of gaak does it though hammer? i mean reactions greater than one oz. are impossible from the otc source if we cant beat the gaak. whether or not you do it as what you call a nano will be determined by the ammount of eph you have. we dont know what parts of the gaak come over in the distillation or even if there is chemical binding of some nature between the sudo and the gaak that would render it unseperable by distillation without pretreatment. chemically enhanced.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-15-04 00:55 No 500882				In defense of the Zima people
						Folks who cook on a scale of a few grams are not nit wits...they are displaying independence and initiative by not letting themselves be at the mercy of whatever happens to be "on sale" at a particular moment...and from what I hear, what is "on sale" at the moment is bunk since these new pills hit. I have gotten three phone calls the past month asking what to do. In the nearly 20 years I have been writing books, this has never happened before. Beyond that, by being independent of "the local dealer" the small scale cooker can keep himself away from the inbedded snitches of the dope dealing scene which is what almost always leads to people getting busted in the first place. A simple extraction method which doesn't require glassware and vacuum distillation must be persued to keep this established segment of the meth cooking culture from falling into oblivion. They do not deserve to be sneered at, as they are the backbone of the culture. Multi-oz cookers come and go, as theirs is a dangerous path, but the small cookers for self and friends just stay and stay.
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 04-15-04 06:34 No 500913				re:the "burn" myth
						The rumors of sudo "burn" are real, but it involves reaction between sudo and other pill ingredients with OH under heat.. Is Uncle fester talking of actually burning the psuedo, thinking some inactive might get destroyed by excess heat? Is this the pseudo "burn"  legend UF is speaking of.  Any other beez heard of it? Swim has burnt his pill mass before and still gotten top not resultz.  He was unsure and Chemo and SHORTY advised him that pseudo was indeed a tough molecule.  I think the NAOH washes prove that. Can or will inactives  burn before the pseudo in an OH boil?  Dumb question, but swim always wanted to know the answer. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		wareami (Hive Addict) 04-16-04 00:24 No 501011				Roads less traveled...
						Can't speak for unc but Ibee agrees with Chemo and SHORTY and others that claim pseudo is a tough molecule. Bees are tough molecules too but it's HIGHly likely that stewing one in hot alky would have adverse effects on their make-up! Not mentioning any names...WOOOOHooooooo! Ibee's long been against subjecting pfed to solvent boiling and other extreme temp cleaning methods. What would be the hottest exothermic peak in rxn? Ibee doubts it would excede 120°C. Lret's take a brief look at exceeding those temps in rxn and the product produced beeing less favorable. What is behind this chemically? Maybe a decomposition of pfed and a conversion to something else. The product doesn't just vanish in thin air? Who knows? Ibee can only speculate based on the laws iof science since he's not smart(schooled) enough to kick them around with any certainty. There has long been a wide yield recovery range in extraction and along with those collection inconsistancies, there has been much mystery surrounding the exact cause and point of loss. Ware'ditGO? This happens when many follow the same extraction method(with personal twists of course!) One point bees might like to consider is that Ibee is the most consistant bee I know in what he recovers every single time UP to Bat! I like to think it has something to do with that hat he wares and the chant he was taught by jacked! But statistically speaking, there always seems to be a common denominator that sets him apart that shouldn't be overlooked. He saw it constantly among other bees reports detailing the processes of speedy evap(external heat) of the pfed hcl salt after the frontside Egull Method extraction. How could bees be reporting 50% yield loss compared to Ibee's ability to collect beyond 100% and discover there was a Gaak pulling point past 95%? Too many things didn't add UP and so it was determined that the application or introduction of heat after treating GUPS with Tetra was the cause of the mechanical loss and once bees stopped applying heat, there was higher reported yields from those very same bees? The exclusion of one simple process that bees became accustomed to during water extraction put bees back in the higher yield bracket. Now I don't claim that Ibee's demands on himself should ever have a bad reflection on other bees that come up short or that Ibee is more skilled in any area of this biz. Extraction included. Bees that use heat, use heat for reasons and Ibee would never try to sway bees from exploring that. But one area that has remained consistant without fail and the reason why Ibee wanted this explained is the fact that everything extraction related, that Ibee does, aside from the rxn and end result collection is done completely Room Temp or Lower(solvent temp). He will also bee the first to say that any mechanical losses incurred on his end are either a direct result of user error, en route, or a less than successful exploratory extraction method. And when the latter happens, it always spells "Back to The Drawing Board" for him til he puts it back into the 90% "window of success" range. For what it's worth....IMHO a little less conversation, a little more reaction
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-16-04 02:50 No 501027				burning the goods
						Was there a load of NaOH in that toasted pill mass? Often times a mess can be formed from which extracting pseudo is very difficult. It seems that once the ingedient has been extracted into alcohol, and the pill solids filtered off,then OH and heat can be applied with no bad results.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-17-04 02:12 No 501189				publishing emergency
						Generally I publish recipes in my books, but this is an unforseen situation. I had thought that steamimg out the goods would cover this situation, but it only works on ephedrine...so here is what Fester labs has come up with.. 100 sudo pills of the typical store variety were ground in a blender with about 150 ml toluene. After grinding to a fine size they were stirred a bit for about an hor, then filtered and the pill mass allowed to dry. (Note: this may be a waste of time) After drying, the pill mass was extracted with portions of 91% isoprpyl alcohol, about 150 ml was used total as the extracts faded from bright red orange to weakly dull red orange, this experimenter was using the gak as a signal flag for the goods as the World Patent I posted up before said that they were mixing the crap with the goods, and the solubilities are similar. Forget about picking scales...an exercise in idiocy... the isopropyl alky extract nicely filtered was put in a big beaker and put on a stove top and heated...as it approached boiling about 5 grams of KOH was added with some swirling...my goodness how it reacted as it dissolved...the solution was nearing boiling and the chips seemed to have a life of their own...as the solution boiled, the color changed from dark red orange to light orange, while another layer at the bottom of the flask appeared...it was hard to tell what its color was, but there was no rap music, so it must not have been black...the solution was boiled for 20 minutes, then allowed to cool...the solution was poured into a sep funnel and the lower layer which had the color of boiled down coffee was separated off. The alky solution was put back in the beaker, and a very gentle heat, blow off the alky fumes, or just sit and evaporate strategy was employed for a day until what was left was a semi-dry crystalline mass on the bottom of the beaker that still smelled of isopropyl. The experimenter's next move was to wash with 20 ml of water, although that may have been a bad move...as he swirled around many flakes got sucked up in the water and they had to be sudo flakes...the idea was to dissolve KOH...the water wash was put into a sep funnel, and it looked like Pepto-Bismol...to what was left in the beaker a couple small size toluene washes were rinsed around, then added to the sep funnel..total used was about 75 ml with some time to play on the sides...once they went into the sep funnel, the toluene layer displayed no gak character. It was a single dividing line between the water and solvent.The toluene was washed a couple of times with water portions of roughly half the size of the solvent layer, and the toluene layer was clear but cloudy with incorporated water...the crap went to the water. The toluene was put in a beaker for a few hours to drain intrained water, and then when clear was poured into another beaker and gassed with HCL to give what look to be nice and pure extract. I've seen it before, so I think I can tell the real McCoy. Fuck tetra trap,,,etc,,,,just extract and boil...then clean.
		bigdumbnut (Newbee) 04-24-04 20:01 No 502716				Don't mean to be a pain in the ass but can...
						Don't mean to be a pain in the ass but can NaOH be substituted for KOH? Thanks
		amalgum (Hive Bee) 04-24-04 21:54 No 502733				SWIM hasn't been doing anything in the past...
						SWIM hasn't been doing anything in the past few weeks due to this new gakk.  The last rxn came out horribly, with almost no yeild.  SWIM still wants to test the HCOOH thing, but can't due to no available clean feedstock. SWIM took some gakked residues from the last rxn and tried the NaOH burn thing with alcohol.  No avail.  However, the other day, SWIM took some of the result (peanut butter meth to the max) and scraped together like a pinky-nail sized ball and ate it.  Man SWIMS tolerance must have went back to zero, cuase it kept him jacked late into the night.  Took it at 6pm and stayed up till 10am, slept 4 hours, then stayed up all the next day and late into the next night still jacked!  All from that one little bit!  And it was a good clean fealing buzz too.  The fact that he slept and woke up still jacked told him it was good and clean, well aside from the gakk of course. SWIM is about to say fuck it, and break out the tlc sheets and the ol' column.  Maybe a lot of tedious trial and error with chromatography will be worth it after all, as far as nano cooking goes.  SWIMS current living situation prevents the P2P manufacture, but SWIM thinks it'll make a comeback with all this new gakk. Here is another idea.  Would it be possibly better to maybe dissolve pill mass in 70% H2SO4 and steam distill with lewis acid catalyst for P2P to beat the gakk?  Couple that with maybe a high yeilding metal hydride reduction of the imine for racemic amphetamines.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-24-04 23:17 No 502750				this method is startlingly effective
						I have never seen such a simple method do such havoc upon the polymeric gak in today's pills. It just ends up as a layer at the bottom of the alcohol after KOH reflux, and what is left goes into the water wash. After gassing, the product, obtained in high yield, looks very clean. There is no need to do solvent pre-washes or other pill pre-prep. Just grind in alcohol, extract with alcohol, then boil with KOH to hydrolyse. After that, some simple steps and clean product is had. As to substituting NaOH for KOH, I haven't seen Red Devil lye on the shelves for over a year now, so I don't know the advantage, but I would bet that if a hot concentrated mixture of KCl salt substitute and NaOH was added in water, then KOH would be the specie in alcohol solvent, and NaCl would be precipitated out. As best I can tell, the only thing which would make it into the product described above would be amino functional polymer subunits. That is if they dissolve well in toluene, and not in water. If they don't also bear hydroxyl groups, then they shouldn't be a problem in the reaction. That is if these subunits exist. If they do, they could probably be removed because pseudo has the characteristic of making free base flakes when the hydrochloride is dissolved in water and then based. This hypothetical subunit would have to jump through some hoops to not be easily removed. This procedure is a major advance and should be pursued. Fester Labs has not put this extract to The Major Test...which is how easily it reduces to meth. Nor do I have access to NMR or IR to check for peaks which don't belong there. However, it looks great, and I've seen the real McCoy before.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-25-04 00:52 No 502766				More on using NaOH
						Sodium hydroxide has the inconvenient property of not dissolving well in alcohol. It might be usable, but would require much longer reaction times to get the same effect. Also, hydrolysis, as the name implies, requires some water in the mix. These experiments were done with 91% isopropyl alcohol. These results are from experiment, not conjecture from theory, so let the replies reflect that.
		weaz1dls (Hive Bee) 04-25-04 04:01 No 502780				One a these Bees is doin his own thing...
						Sufice to say Swiw's inability to follow directions brings many a adventure in life.  Today we will capitalize on that handicap and call it the answer.  ( How arigant, what an idiot....) Now wait a minute let me finish.  The answer to what, you ask?  Why the answer to what if and quite possibly er most likely, What not to do.  Hopefully it will be an experiment that answers some "worst case" scenerio questions...blah blah   OK. Generic 60's were used Variations to the above path set forth by U. F. 1.Ethyl either,Hexane,Carbon dioxide: OTC Start Fluid    added to GUPs. 2. Then Jap Drier and flask heated by hot H20 bath at     first.  Then a couple 30 sec zapsin micro to keep the    heat just at the boil point of the Gups mix.    Solution changed color from light violet to a marron    then on to an deep orange.  Gups took on a Teal color. 3. Let settle then sepped off top fluid and filtered through cotton via gravity.  Added more Start fluid to Gups 2x's as wash solution and Poured all into a clean cotton plugged funnel. Solvent removed via reduced pressure.  As usual the blue Floated and hung around long past it's welcome and was reluctantly removed via 3 tone rinses while vaccume still running. 4. Dried powder collected from both funnels and blaced in ISO H__t.  A dash or so of water was tossed in for a ghetto equivilant of 91% ISO. Pulled 3 times after boiling in micro and suction filtered to yield a clear solution with a slight teal tint. Reduced the volume a bit in micro. 5. After cooling some swiw added NaOH right out of the jar.   Solution began to cloud.  Colors went from milk to tan to light brown.  Placed dish on top of carafe with TP plug at lip and zapped in micro. Zap,swirl zap swirl.  Each time the milky part apered to collect together like curdling cream in coffee.  Swirling would redispurse all then micro would re curdle. When boiling point was reached and a vapor collected in top the solution was swirled and allowed to settle.  After cooling a bit it was reheated, etc etc.  Simulating a reflux with added alternating polar field. With each cool down more prominant layer formed. Final solution had a light milky colored powder at the bottom, topped by a coffee looking solution that resembled an ice coffee drink due to the clear crystals forming at the top.  Added a bit more ISO heated back up then filtered hot and rinsed filter with more hot ISO. This is where Swiw is thus far.. will post as it gos to keep all informed.  Flames comments and suggestions welcomed of course. Will you ever Fuckin learn to spell?  For Fuck Sake!
		Red_Crown (Stranger) 04-25-04 12:22 No 502823				any minimal approaches?
						Excuse me for this probably naive question: Is there a more certain, unanimous, and easy way to extract a reliably pure product if someone did not care about yields much at all?  (by "easy" meaning- with the usual reagents.) Especially for the nano dreamer, ~%10 yields without the hassle and uncertainty might be worth it..
		CharlieBigpotato (goat) 04-25-04 13:20 No 502838				10% via tetra trap is do-able
						swim's last attempt (w/red 30 mg. pills) and tetra-trap gave a no hassles 10% yield. of course, swim wasn't able to accept a mere 10% and went on to create a large hassle trying to get more from the super gakked pill mass. in retrospect, going for the 10% would have been rather fast and easy. and expensive
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-25-04 23:23 No 502998				more minimal approach??
						It would be hard to get simpler or more easily supplied than this method. 91% isopropyl is off the shelf rubbing alcohol, and alcohol pulls used to be a standard method prior to the gak plague. This just adds a step to the old alcohol pull method, that step being add base, preferably KOH. Boiling the alcohol was always part of the alcohol pull procedure, so that addition of KOH is the only new twist along with better clean up at the end.
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-26-04 00:31 No 503009				Ringworm Tester?
						Pardon my chem ignorance but what is KOH and is it obtainasble OTC? Again I would not ask such a blatantly basic question if the search engine was operating but I was able to find through Google that it is Potassium Hydroxide and can be used to determine the presence of ringworm (atheletes foot?) but that's all I really know. Swim's buddy currently has 1oz of psuedo that he would like to prepare for a certain "reduction" but is still not quite certain how to proceed. The goods were acquired by soaking uncrushed generic 120's wrapped in hybrid tyvek/tree fiber "painters rags" in 99% isopropanol. Other than an acetone panning rinse after drying/crushing nothing else has been done to the extract. Swim's buddy has some NaOH on hand but no ringworm determiner. alias Storkington Pinworm
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-26-04 00:51 No 503012				cattle dehorner??
						My trips through the farmer's store makes a bell ring in my head which says that cattle dehorner is KOH...in any case, if one has NaOH and KCl salt substitute, then as I described above KOH is what will go into solution in the alcohol. That KOH may be a sticking point, but it was easily available for me and the correct thing to use.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-26-04 02:01 No 503019				KCl salt substitute
						This stuff is off the shelf at the grocery store for people who want to cut down on their sodium intake....or at least it used to be, I haven't checked that section of the grocery store in a few years...It's right next to the salt, and at least used to be sold under the brand name of "Lite" or something like that. It tastes like shit, and so isn't a big mover.
		bigdumbnut (Newbee) 04-26-04 06:58 No 503065				adulterants
						All the salt substitutes this dummy can find list 3 or 4 extra ingrediants (simpleton forgot them). They don't list %. I know this is a broad question but will they foul the objective? By the way, you're the greatest! Your procedure works w/ NaOH and I'm told the final product is Tit's. The yield was poor though (20%)so it's probably worth the effort to obtain KOH. The village idiots are trying more pulls just in case. 20% of bonafide quality is a happy number considering the unobtainable quality of late. Our lungs recognized the shit that came out at basing. The lovely Pharm co.s have to know they're poisoning their best customers
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-26-04 20:32 No 503179				OTC Dehorning Product?
						So this potassium Hydroxide is primarily an OTC dehorning product? I know a tack and feed type store nearby. Should I go there and say I've got a pet bull that I want to dehorn or something? alias Storkington Pinworm
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-26-04 23:38 No 503208				the simpler alternative
						That dehorner is a paste, and so would introduce gak of its own. The simpler alterantive is to mix about 5 grams of KCl salt substitute with about 5 grams of NaOH for each 100 pills, dissolve that in the minimal amount of HOT water just pour that into the alky extract.
		Red_Crown (Stranger) 04-27-04 01:03 No 503225				it is OTC
						KOH is used in soap making (instead if NaOH to make softer soap), and pure in *some* hydroponic, aquarium, and maybe even pool "pH UP" concoctions. There are a number of routes otherwise, but from the sounds of it, just a longer NaOH reflux will do, ey? ... And, should this proc work on 60s and 120s? (hypothetically)
		uktrials (Stranger) 04-27-04 03:36 No 503250				What substitutes
						can be used in place of toluene? Swim is u.k. based and is finding this hard to obtain. Could 'White Spirit - mineral spirit' be used in place of this? Swim also has the same problem with 'KOH' so welcome's the NaOH and KCl salt substitute. Swim would like to ask the legendary 'Fester' (your the man dude!!!!!) what NaOH and KCl salt mix ratios would suit a 10g Phed Extracxtion from Lil Reds, and if the red can be left on (no prior cleaning) with success? "Live and learn"
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 04-27-04 13:39 No 503303				Non-Polar Solvents
						Xylene and toluene often are often interchanged for one another.  Swim doesn't know for sure but he imagines that any NP solvent should work effectively.  Swim thinks the most important part would be the gassing, which probably couldn't be changed to titration and still be succesful.  This is just speculation, though. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		uktrials (Stranger) 04-27-04 19:50 No 503362				Non- Polar Solvents & Gassing
						Toluene is a clean non-polar right, and white spirit looks very clean but is it a true non-polar?  Meaning would it hold more water meaning longer to drain intrained water? Also is this procedure (and the white spirit one) affective for the removal of Povidone? I am guessing that gassing could be achieved by the reaction of sulfuric acid (brick cleaner - not sure of the % but probably 30/40%) with sodium chloride (common salt). TFSE is not working right now, so some ratios for the above would help. "Live and learn"
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-27-04 20:21 No 503367				a general method
						This is a general method which would work as well on 60's or 120's with correspondingly greater amounts of KOH added to compensate for the greater amount of gak per pill on those bigger ones. I would think this should put the pill gakkers out of the polymer additive game, unless they come up with a really slick one or two. I may be talking too fast there, as the gas station ephedrine pills are of a more advanced formulation. See Pill Fuckers at it Again thread. Naptha is substitutable for toluene, it just doesn't dissolve the product as well, and in gassing it takes more bubbles to get the job done. I have always included naptha as the solvent of choice to separate guifenesin from ephedrine in my book procedures. As to povidone, in my experiment, I did a toluene pre-soak, and was wondering if that could just now be done away with.
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 04-27-04 22:42 No 503383				Gassing
						Here is a link to VE's gassing method, seems to be the best and easiest swim has found.  Post 265010 (VideoEditor: "New Clean Gassing Method!", Newbee Forum).  Thought it would be helpful since TFSE is down for the time being. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-28-04 02:50 No 503405				adulterants
						The bottle on my store shelf says that it is 99% KCl, with some titanium dioxide to whiten it up and other "help keep it flowing" ingredients. Ignor them, but keep in mind that I haven't tried an extraction using the NaOH/KCl alternative. It's just chem ed that says it should work.
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-28-04 05:22 No 503431				Ideally Speaking
						No disrespect intended Fester but take a look at how this individual wrote up his extraction method. I think most people realize that yours is not yet a tried and true procedure and is a work in progress that is of a collective nature but I'm really starting to appreciate when things are posted in the manner that this one below is. And I'm sure someday quite soon your's will also be ready to be written up as such. Post 440177 (VideoEditor: "New Straight to E -- a novel extraction tech.", Stimulants) Country line dancing royally sucked until black people got ahold of it
		uktrials (Stranger) 04-28-04 06:53 No 503434				potassium hydroxide pellets
						Okay, so if we bypass the NaOH and KCl salt substitute and aquired  (Koh) Laboratory Reagent potassium hydroxide pellets 500g (sold on our favorite auction site for a mere $5), how should a bee prepare this for addition - I'm thinking the addition of hot aqua until slightly viscus? "Live and learn"
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 04-28-04 16:08 No 503526				Potassium Hydroxide amounts
						This is taken from one of Fester's previous posts in this very thread. The simpler alterantive is to mix about 5 grams of KCl salt substitute with about 5 grams of NaOH for each 100 pills, dissolve that in the minimal amount of HOT water just pour that into the alky extract. as it approached boiling about 5 grams of KOH was added with some swirling. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		uktrials 04-28-04 19:05				My mistake (Rated as: redundant)
		dwarfer (esoteric) 04-28-04 22:20 No 503612				response on alcohol base solubilities
						I actually wrote a nice post that took about 45 minutes before my machine took a giant dump. so here's the summary. 1.  NaOH is around 25% as soluble in methanol or isopropyl as it is in water.  Very similar to KOH 2.  KOH is available as a drain cleaner in some big box stores in gallon containers if you really want. 3.  Dumping NaOH in water can generate enough heat to break your favorite pre-material. 4.  Dumping NaOH in hot alcohol maybe won't, but Marvin says just put it in your room temp alcohol and heat to boiling it will do the trick. Here's a sequence that will show you some degraded junk. 1.  Extrtack with alcohol. 2.  evaporate to dryness. 3.  De grease with mixture of xylene and naptha in reflux if you can: boil in open if you must.  (hate that hazard, though..:suggest PP) 4.  Dissolve in as dry an alkie as you have. Methanol and iso work. add NaOH.  Heat to boiling, Add 4X amount of water (not a critical measurement..) Heat to boiling again JUST to boiling, and add sturating amount of NaCL as the water coolsdown it will force out the broken crap molecules. Filter . Add xylene, shake, separate, gas ================ A fellow above whose handle eludes me at present mentioned ZnCl2.  This, and even better, FeCl3, in alcohol will degrade the polywhateversmegmoid also, but the base alky is easier, at least in my opinion.  (so far, subject to change.) My first post was  lot better with images, references, etc.  fuck it.  dwarfer
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-29-04 00:46 No 503639				New Recipes Ain't as Fun WHile Sleepy
						Thanks for your efforts to boost the fun ratio Dwarfer. One of these days someone will win the coveted "rated as excellent" award for consisely writing up this newfangled thing and things can get back to business as usual. Anybee have any real reaction results? That's the tried and and true part of the equation. Country line dancing royally sucked until black people got ahold of it
		weaz1dls (Hive Bee) 04-29-04 05:40 No 503681				Followup
						Sorry for the delay in results but Swiw was to tired after fumbling with the last test.  If you recall it was a possible "what not to do" and that it was!  Looking back, Swiw isn't exactly sure but He thinks he recalls reading somewhere that Pseudo hcl is soluble in ethyl either.  So that was a do not do deffinately.  SWIW will try this without cleaning the pills first, as that was the way swiw dealt with these pills in the past. The results that swiw ended up with after a water wash and filtering the np then gassing was a powder that had to be heated to the "flow temp." of glass in order to get it to melt. Then upon cooling the stuff would crack the glass.  sounds like an acrylic to swiw.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-29-04 21:29 No 503811				ideally speaking
						If you want flowing prose from me, I had better get paid for the work. As to this being obviously a work in progress, it is so simple that anybody can take the ball and run with it. Recognize what is obviously a major advance and the end of the polymer additives to pills game. The directions are so simple, it needs little further explaination.
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-29-04 22:25 No 503818				All True
						All true but whoever writes the concise and clear writeup still deserves the rated as excellent award. I once had a boss who was brilliant in the head but had no sensitivity whatsoever to the level of understanding of his fellow department members. He was the worlds worst teacher in this regard for reasons that are all implied in the previous sentence. He had written a few academia level books but once when I tried to read one of them (written on education theory nontheless) them I found it nearly incomprehensible.  Everythings easy when you already know how to do it. Assuming something's easy for anyone but you is an insult to your "students". PS. It would almost be worth it to take up a collection and then pay Video Editior to write up this technique. AT least he's proved he has the capacity to pull it off and without any expectation of monetary retutrn and without any insult his audience. Country line dancing royally sucked until black people got ahold of it
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-29-04 22:58 No 503823				experimental style
						The experimental procedure was written up to show the thoughts that went through the head of the experimenter as it was being done. Those thoughts will cover other avenues of approach, for example I was wondering if using water to wash out the residual KOH after evaporation was the correct move, or should solvent be first. Experiment showed that water was a good first move, and then collect psuedo with solvent. The procedure is so simple a monkey could be trained to do it. As to the Boss Man, I mostly spend my day cursing at them. If they don't like it, they can fire me.
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 04-29-04 23:04 No 503825				What's the big deal, Chemo?
						Swim can find all the directions he needs in UF's posts.  I think a bee should be grateful that we have a cure for the methacrylates(wrong spelling)! Come on Chemo, all the intructions are there.  I agree that there are better write ups but swim has no problem following this one. As far as excellent ratings go(karma points), nobody deserves a karma point more than Scottydog, I mean his cure works, it is laid out short and simple and did I mention that it works?  Personaly I don't understand why a flashy looking write up usually gets rated as at least a good read and Scottydogs cure seems to fall through the cracks. IMHO, if a method can cure the pfed us chemhacks are dealing with, then it deserves an excellent rating. But, I am just a red neck.  Make that king of redneck hell! absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-29-04 23:19 No 503830				Sorry, Pent up Older Frustrations
						Sorry Fester and everyone else. While shaving I realized that I've been letting loose older frustrations that had more to do with Festers' published work than this recent idea here which I'll admit is a very good peice of work. Although I still feel it would not be a bad idea to write up fully once it's complete. Fester, working with your publishsed work of the past has been like doing taxes. Having to jump around to diffeerent books and with a whole lot of knowledge assumed on the part of the reader. These books did very much remind me of that boss I mentioned who had no sensitivity to the level of understanding of a rank amatuer and I would not class you as a natural born educator. So I guess I'm really just hoping that this does change in any future vesrions of your published work. Sorry again. The sentiment is real but is also somewhat misplaced here. Country line dancing royally sucked until black people got ahold of it
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-29-04 23:26 No 503832				the rank amateur
						I'm not writing for the rank amateur, as I don't want him cooking my drugs. After lots of practise and self experimentation, then that's fine.
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 04-29-04 23:32 No 503835				Get the Basics Elsewhere
						Fester wrote, After lots of practise and self       experimentation, then that's fine. You mean here a lot of practice using educational materials other than your own right? Like maybe Strike's book? Even with a basic chem background there's a lot to be desired in the organization and comprehensibility of the older material. I just think with examples such as Video Editors you could put together a far more usable body of work than you have in the past. Country line dancing royally sucked until black people got ahold of it
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 04-30-04 00:12 No 503845				looking to cook MDMA?
						If you need a primer to start studying MDMA cooking, then Strike's book is a fine place to start, although you will find most of the same recipes in my books. It's unavoidable as we both draw from the patent lit. As I started my cooking in the 70's, there were no fine sources of info such as this site, my books, and Strike's books to draw from. Just bullshit. Before one should cook for others, become proficient in the art, and quit making a public spectical of yourself.
		CharlieBigpotato (goat) 04-30-04 12:29 No 503982				keep your day job
						there is no cure written up here that works today. regardless of egos
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-01-04 06:29 No 504124				I stand behind them
						I stand behind my experimental results. If you have other results, come forth and show them. This thread has the local cops so run crazy that they are quizzing former girlfiends, her paint store owner dad, and my slave masters at my dayjob. Their most telling question is " why does he spend such an inordinate amount of time at that dayjob?". The answer to that one is they gave me two jobs to work for a lousey $100 extra per week. Their line of inquiry begins "Fester is planning a bombing plot, what do you know about it." Now would the heat be so excited if this was a fantasy?? This method is the wreckage of a multi-million dollar patent. If your results show otherwise, come forth and give details of the experiement.
		rangahtank (Stranger) 05-03-04 00:56 No 504472				no yield
						SWIR tried a variation of some of the procedures. 6 boxes 20X120mg generics were finely ground. JD was added to acetone (1:10) boiled twice, naptha added to PM, boiled 3X, then PM allowed to dry. When dry, Iso alkie was used to extract from the PM.  The Iso was saved after extracting 3X from PM.  10g NaOH was added to alcohol and boiled for 10min.  A color change of tan/brown/brown-black was noted with a very dark (black?) precipitate forming.  After cooling, 250ml water was added to the 150ml of alcohol and brought just to boiling.  Extreme 'bumping' was noted.  A saturation of NaCl was added to the mixture and was allowed to cool. After cooling, some alcohol was still present on top of the water.  The solution was reheated until no alcohol was observed.  200ml of Xylene was added to the water and allowed to sit for 1hr.  The xylene was then gassed.  Before gassing, translucent 'clouds' of presumed pfed were observed in the solvent layer.  During gassing with HCl, these disappeared.  No precipitate was formed during the gassing procedure.  Yield: 0 Can someone explain where the pfed is?  NaOH was again added to the water layer and another gassing attempted.  Yield was again, nothing.  Anybody got any ideas?  SWIR is about to pull his hair out, after spending an entire weekend trying to do everything just right.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-03-04 01:17 No 504476				puzzled
						I'm puzzled as to how this resembles the original procedure. In any case I may have to bail out soon, for a while, to keep the heat from going nuts. Take the ball and run with it, because a printing press just works too slowly.
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 05-03-04 01:56 No 504484				Thanks & Stay Outa Trouble
						Thanks Fester, And I truly mean that with no sense of sarcasm or irony. I by no means intended to trivialize your valuable contribution here and what you have provided it is still very much appreciated by me despite my tired and somewhat gripey posts that did want you to attempt to improve some on your methods of presentation. If you do go for a bit you won't bee forgotten when your methods are being used as they most likely will be. Swim's buddy is now finally on the verge of some KOH acquisistion. Good luck staying out of any trouble with the heat, For real and sincere, ChemoSabe The Shiite has hit the fan
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-03-04 02:11 No 504487				you too
						And Granny's Lye soap (KOH) chews up those polymers...
		popi (Newbee) 05-03-04 04:26 No 504510				Thanks Uncle! For the Clean Soap
						Glad you found time to answer that post.So simple of an extraction just by going back to the __basic's. Brilliant!! The walls have ears 1967
		zerotextspy (Stranger) 05-03-04 04:38 No 504515				Alternative crystallization?
						for this extraction, is there any alternative crystallization that does not use HCl gassing?
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 05-03-04 15:44 No 504587				clues for Rangatank
						The first time I tried this I used dry alcohol. Wrong thing to do. This method needs alcohol with water in it. I learned a simple little thing about chemistry I would probably have known had I ever taken a course in it.  No big deal. Not the first time I tried something, did it poorly, and got only what I learned from the experience from it. You wonder where the pseudo went. You tell us you extracted with ISO alcohol. Was this gas line drier ISO (pretty much anhydrous) or was it 91% alcohol? How much water was available? YOu don't tell us how you extracted the pseudo. WE don't know if you soaked, filtered, boiled, or stuck it all the fridge. If I knew the type of alcohol you used and the manner in which you used it, I might have an answer for where the pseudo went. One answer would be you never extracted it in the first place, and the second would be you burned it up after you extracted some of it. I don't know which. If you did extract it and freebased it, you added water then boiled off the remaining alcohol. You may have also boiled off a lot of the freebase pseudo. I assume you washed and dried your xylene before gassing, and assume you use dry gas, and gassed when it wasn't raining like mad outside. I could be wrong on these assumptions also. I doubt anyone can really tell you where the missing pseudo is. There are a few detail too many left out for anyone to guess just where it may be right now. mostly harmless
		dwarfer (esoteric) 05-04-04 20:34 No 504843				re-iteration
						If you add NaOH to dry alcohol containing precursors, bring to a boil, and then add water, and  saturate with NaCl while continuing boiling for just a minute, (it won't take much heat because as the water dissolves the remaining NaOH that didn't dissolve in the alkie it will release heat)... Just pour a thick layer of xylene over the hot mix.  As the water cools down, the NaCl is super saturated and crystallizes out with the NaCl at the bottom. The hot water and alcohol circulates in a convection pattern that rises to the surface where the cool xylene is. the freebase would rather be in the NP than the alcohol, even.  When it is cool, filter off the xylene and gas or evap for clean-enough-for Marvin FB.  Not clean enuff for Geeze, but Marvin has no complaints. References: Gemini, who seridipitously discovered the technique Rhodium, who has a one-liner reference to the effect in some other forum that I can't find. ================ This is an elaboration on what I did above. Kudos to UF for persisting in the face of raspberries. out ".  Dissolve in as dry an alkie as you have. Methanol and iso work. add NaOH.  Heat to boiling, Add 4X amount of water (not a critical measurement..) Heat to boiling again JUST to boiling, and add sturating amount of NaCL" ======================= if you DON"T add the overlaying NP, you will get crystals of FB at the surface of the water/alkie, along with the broken crapola molecules.  They (the fb crystals) can be scraped off with a spatula and washed in water. dwarfer
		chochu3 (Stranger) 05-06-04 01:08 No 505159				NaOH and psuedo
						Psuedo was taken and placed in water, and then addition of NaOH was added. A polymer mass formed and was allowed to sit for a day. The polymer mass was added to isopropanol with non-polar already present. The mixture sat their until addition of more NaOH and water. The polymer mass then started to break up, after shaking and elapsed time, the mixture seperated into three layer: polar, gunk, and nonpolar layer.   The expiriment was tried three years ago when povidone and PEG were the only mix. The layers were not isolated nor tested, but showed signs of polymer break up as reported by others on this thread.
		rangahtank (Stranger) 05-06-04 01:33 No 505165				to the tee Dwarfer
						You described exactly what happened Dwarfer, up to the point where the xylene was gassed.  The pfed was noted crystallizing on the sides of the beaker as the last of the alcohol was evap'd.  Then xylene was added, the crystals dissolved and cannot be gassed back out up to this point. Currently evaporating the entire mess to see just what happens
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 05-06-04 02:50 No 505181				What kind of yeilds did Dwarfer get?
						What kind of yeilds did Dwarfer get?  Swim thinks that Marvin could probably refine the product further? absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		metalgirl (Stranger) 05-06-04 03:08 No 505190				Hey Dwarfer, why do you use dry alky to star...
						Hey Dwarfer,             why do you use dry alky to start with?
		infoNut (Stranger) 05-06-04 07:50 No 505247				A beginning to end report
						I mostly lurk here, and I'm a relative newbie, but I read quite a bit. I told my crazy friend SWIM about this and he decided to give it a try. He started with 7 boxes of 120s (70 pills). He cracked them with tone and removed the hulls, then let the pill mass dry. Because he wasn't sure if this would take care of Orange II as well, he did 2 three minute JD/TCE washes. After letting the PM dry again, tone was used to remove the "blue" from the PM. Dried again. Three ISO pulls were done, using a total of about 200ml. Because of the time release "dry matrix" nature of the stock, 99% ISO was used. 8g of lye and 8g of "lite salt" were combined with 30ml H2O and stirred until mostly dissolved. The three pulls were combined in a beaker and brought to a boil, then the lye mixture was added. A funnel was placed in the top of the beaker. This mostly sealed it and allowed the iso fumes to condense on the underside of the funnel and drip back into the beaker. (SWIM has no condenser) The solution was boiled for about 30 minutes. A thin layer was seen to form on the bottom, and a brown gummy substance gathered at the interface between the two layers. The beaker was removed from heat, allowed to cool a bit, and the alcohol was decanted into an evap dish. Once dry, SWIM had a dish full of tan/brown crystals, which he scraped up and water washed which removed some of the color. The crystals were covered with Xylene and stirred, and stirred, and stirred. Most dissolved into the NP which was didn't cloud up but became tan colored. What didn't dissolve was set aside to mess with later. The xlylene was gassed, the precipitate washed with cold dry tone, and the results recrystalized. Weighed out to just over 5g (out of a possible 8.4)Not great but ... Thrown into a flask with 4g MBRP and 6g I2 from tincture. 2.5ml DH2O was added, hose and punchball and away we go. Skipping all the gory details, when the xylene pulls were gassed, "yeild per pull" was back up where I had seen it in the past. No violet tinge and no orange, return was 3.5g. I realize that's not great, but it's a much better percentage than SWIMS been getting since the violet showed up, and his technique leaves much to be desired. Milage will definately vary. Bio-assay ranks B+/A- on the first "too impatient" non-rextalized dose. Recrystalization is currently in progress. InfoNut
		dwarfer (esoteric) 05-06-04 20:19 No 505374				Why dry alkie?
						I think it was a conditioned reflex to stay as dry as possible, plus as luck would have it I have 3 types of dry alcohols on hand. After the first dry alcohol pull of the GUPS, a water pull was made but there was no more to be had. Gemini does both an alcohol pull and a water pull and combines them, boils away most of the alcohol, and then over-bases with NaOH and NaCl.  She leaves out the two NP clean process that are neccesary  out where Marvin hangs out. I didn't even think to use water because I know that NaOH crystals and water can fry pseudo if you aren't careful.  (And having watched Marvin, I can tell you he ain't careful) And I knew I wanted to overdose with NaCl to help pushthe freebase into the NP. so instead of using dampish alkies to begin with, I used dry, and the solubility of NaOH in alcohol is certainly enough to kick the pseudo salt to freebase.  Then you have to add water to dissolve the NaCl to run the freebase into the NP. So basically i derived the protocol looking for different things, but effectively replicated the  UF results when he was  going directly for polymer degradation. My approach was an extension of some things I learned  when I was dicking with poly-ampholytes ??2 years ago??  in some arcane series including "Salti the Wonder Dawg, and his Faithful Sidekick Microhertz." ============== As regards % recovery, I have not measured,but I can tell you this: there is some loss in the fact that some ofthe FB stays in the alcoho, I think.  So, when you re-disolve the salt in dry hot alcohol, let it get down to where it might skin over if you were to let it cool, and then proceed with the whole NaOH, and NaCl and hot water adddition. It should be noted that this is a pretty cool way of extracting ephedra also: more information to follow.. dwarfer
		dwarfer (esoteric) 05-06-04 20:24 No 505375				old post
						224914 October 15, 2001 (delete) Take your white or de-redded supplies and boil them in cheap mixed alcohols and filter and heat up to boiling and add enough table salt to saturate. Add enough NaOH to pH to max. Set aside to cool. OOH look at those black curds of crap.  (And sometimes bright and weird colors....) Yes, you infidels, that IS the poly-ampholytes you non believers sneered at, forming in a manner explicitly demonstrating their otherwise interfering presence.. They twist about each other in Kurdish curds: whey to go plastic-mongers... They try to re-configure themselves to confound the A/B process forever: but they get AFU’d with all those ions in the water and they are NOT I assure you, as soluble as table salt OR ephedrine.... But that ain’t near as demonstrative as the next phase, which is to take it back to acid, dropwise addition of DILUTED HCl back to pH 4.  (I said DILUTED: 10% max: don’t ask THIS fool how much boiled over on the floor the first time: but I DID have protective gloves and eyewear on YEA>>>>>) OOH gross brown woofta. Evaporate slowly: If the black curds keep forming, re filter: as it evaporates you gots salt precipin out, and the floating plastic will be seen. Dude or dudette: You can go back and forth as many times as you want, and each time you will get more crap out. Each time the acid phase will be less brown... It does not take much acid or base to swing it back and forth: just filter out the curds.. (Truth is, you do not have to filter each time, just let the crap accumulate.  It IS nasty looking stuff...) Eventually, evap it pretty far down in acid mode of course, and either a.  Precip with DMK and clean (this is a long and arduous messy counter productive solvent gobbling process I mention only because it will work...) b.  base the hell out of it again, put it in a large container with adequate amounts of NP, add a large amount of pH 12 or better water, shake, and separate.  Put another dose of NP in the grunge water, shake again, and separate.  Combine the NP’s, wash with a couple of neutral water rinses. Evap, take up with MeOH, good enuff fir birchin. Gas for clean powder free from plastigak. This takes almost as much time to write about as accomplish. (Well, seems like it, anyway.  It DOES go fast and sure saves on NP cleaning supplies.) dwarfer
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-07-04 02:02 No 505486				last word before I run (for a while)
						Tonight my neighbor told that the cops were looking through my windows a couple of weeks ago while I was at work. This has them worked up into a fit. I saw first hand what happened to the polymer gak, and the pseudo product looked great. That doesn't mean it is pure, but I've seen the real stuff before. Assuming one has a complete hydrolysis, then if there is carryover of batch killing material, it could be as simple as choosing the right solvent to extract with and gas from. For example, guifenesin is easily separable from ephedrine just by using naptha instead of toluene as the extractant. This route is worth checking out as it has them excited, and I must fly for a while. BTW, distilling the polymer/pseudo mix leaves a residue in the flask that seems like plastic and won't dissolve in anything after it has been burned. Take from that what you will...
		dwarfer (esoteric) 05-11-04 22:14 No 506523				A FINE ARROW FOR THE QUIVER
						Much  of the foilant chemistry is based on materials which can be degraded  by strong hot base exposure. UF can probably recall his own technique  stipulated a few years back for separation  of guafasinen which entailed mixing GUPS with NaOH crystals, and adding dropwise alcohol (I think it was) [maybe it was water]  and making a paste, and then extracting that with Coleman's. It has some similarity to these proposals, you may note. As compared to a few years ago, practicioners of the art of un-fucking that which has been fucked up now have  several, if not many, tools at their disposal to accomplish their end.  Knowing which to employ given the characteristics which become displayed during the process is part of the fun and challenge. The use of NaOH crystals is fraught with hazards (beyond the usual bodily injury exposures).  The exothermic reaction can fry your pre-molassas. Marvin has had some luck in the extraction of regular fake using the dry mixing of NaOH, dropping alcohol  on it while stirring and mixing the paste (whcih becomes bright yellow) and then adding a few drops of water, dropwise with mixing,  and then extracting into xylene inthe microwave, with the past spread out on the bottom of a 1 liter beaker. This was before the current generation of Gaaks, but it is worthy of a re-visit. The microwave causes the material to heat  and assures that nothing gets burned  (the cool xylene overlays it, everything gets transferred, and the efficiency is high. Filter and salt. I'll have to get Marvey to try it again: maybe put some NaCl in it first, too, just for grins.  ] dwarfer
		popi (Hive Bee) 05-12-04 05:16 No 506597				koh, alky, and sudo that's one interface
						Swip is trying the pulls with iso 99% with added H2o to make 91%.re Fester's 'publishing emergencey'.Bee has the coffee coloured solution that has no layer.It has been left for overnite and as of room temperature 'cool.'there is no bottom lawyer to seperate.The gak seems to bee floating on and in the solution.Can't follow the procedure if we can't separate that fucking! gak...can we? Dwarfer come again?Break it down so bee can read between the lines as bee knows there is important info there bee's can use. Ibee's  not  a pro like you.Thanks  Fucking Gak!!Burn it! the walls have ears and the skys have eyes & chica wanted
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-15-04 00:13 No 507225				as I did it
						I used the 91% isopropyl at the drug store store, and I added the KOH as it was nearing boil. I did this more so I could see it at work as it dissolved leaving a trail of beat up gak behind it falling to the bottom of the flask...maybe the addition sequence was more fortuitous than that. Use 91%...add as the solution nears boiling ...nothing more to add here, but it works. And it is very simple.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-15-04 00:35 No 507230				why wait till nearly boiling part 2
						Have you ever played with 91% isopropyl alcohol and hydroxide?? I have. Adding hydroxide while cold makes a layer at the bottom containing most of the water and hydroxide, and an upper layer that is largely anhydrous and may contain other states of the alcohol. This layer formation was another reason why I added KOH as it was nearing boiling, along with the fun of watching it work as it went in.
		popi (Hive Bee) 05-15-04 00:42 No 507233				It shall bee written it shall bee done Uncle
						Bee did not have the 91 and changed the formula.91%is not sold here.Amazing how little amounts of alky or h20 can change a formula.Don't mess with alterations when you have a good gig.Bee thanks ya for the comeback Uncle,love this new Granny Soap Poly Patend killer. the walls have ears,Big Red Missouri,1967,knock knock's
		popi (Hive Bee) 05-15-04 01:00 No 507239				no not with koh
						Swip had to use hydroxide and k salt substitute.That too could have altered the outcome.Sweet outcome though,your right about it being simple and clean.Must get the Koh though,being it is less of a mass than both. cleaning women wanted,must cook,no english is ok
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-15-04 01:13 No 507244				still standing behind my experiment...
						Maybe the Walmart version of these pills are different from the Walgreens store brand. I doubt it though, but if I get different results, I'll let you know. The route to follow is to attack the polymers, and this is the way to do it....I noticed a couple of days ago a girl saying she liked to microwave hydroxide and water in her sudo suspension...it seems that post has disappeared. She said it made her legs get spread....my e-mail is on the board.
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 05-29-04 23:48 No 510212				wading through but i forgot muh waders
						KOH (yes potasium hydroxide) is available at the big orange hardware store and also at the world of wal. it is sold in 25 lb bags as a de-icer. don't remember the price off hand but i beleive the bag is yellow and white.
		Scottydog (Hive Addict) 05-30-04 03:08 No 510239				KCL Water Softener Pellets
						Barking, Swim was unable to find what you described. Maybee its a seasonal product? Most of the bags of de-icer that Swim remembered seeing during the winter was CaCL. At the big orange, what Swim did manage to find was a 40 lb bag of KCL pellets. The bag was listed as a water softener. (CAS 7447-40-7) So this may actually bee purer then the salt substitute? For $7.58 sure seems to bee a better price. They stack em high and they come in a white bag. Refuse/Resist
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 05-30-04 16:11 No 510323				yep, they are different
						Maybe the Walmart version of these pills are different from the Walgreens store brand Yep. They are different. Have been for a long time. mostly harmless
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-30-04 19:27 No 510358				I'll try again when nobody is looking...
						It shouldn't take long to stuff a beaker and hotplate under my couch, but the polymer additives remain the same. I will report back when I crawl out from my bunker...
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-30-04 21:32 No 510381				brand name 120's
						I noted while shopping that the sudafed brand name 120 timed release tablets have substituted candellia wax for acacia and carnuba wax. The Merck index lists the iodine number for candellia wax, which means it too is easily cleaved by KOH in alcohol. More of the same story...they have overplayed this hand.
		popi (Hive Bee) 05-30-04 23:34 No 510416				120,s thank you Uncle
						We thank you Uncle! Did'nt know you liked the 120's.We up the ante!!Anything more on 120's?That great radio station. the walls have ears,the skys have eyes,keep six!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 05-31-04 02:42 No 510450				iodine number idiot
						iodine number doesn't suggest cleavability, rather it reflects double bonds and their ability to suck up iodine...just a better gak at ruining HI/ red P is the bottom line....but when cleaved, the cards should play better with this polymer. As to upping the ante, have you seen the price on those name brand bastards??
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 06-01-04 21:44 No 510770				you are right scotty
						the product i was thinking of was KCl, i am sure though that i have seen bulk KOH somewhere... i'll go out and do my research again, sorry for the misleading info.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-02-04 03:12 No 510827				the right number is saponfication #
						Merck index lists the saponfication number for candelilla wax, and that was what I was referring to. Saponfication is done with KOH in alcohol, just as the real bitch polymers are cleaved in KOH and alcohol.
		Shane_Warne (Newbee) 06-04-04 07:19 No 511370				KOH and KCl
						Won't NaOH added to a solution of KCl, precipitate KOH? Fester, a mega find you've got there if it works.
		Red_Crown (Hive Bee) 06-04-04 10:15 No 511408				gakk soap
						It would be funny if one made a bar of "Gakk Soap" with the saponified adulterants and sold it. "What are all these pills for? Meth? Nah, I'm a soap-maker. Here, try a free sample." So much time for so little chaos..
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 06-04-04 12:36 No 511435				actually i had a thought along those lines
						but i was more apt to gather all the gaak, package it up and send it to the justice department with a note that says here i think this is yours.
		Scottydog (Hive Addict) 06-04-04 23:59 No 511525				Liquid Soap
						Yep the bottom layer that separates, as Fester describes is actually a combo of gakk and liquid soap. Swim tried this cure on white 60's and blue 60's. He used KCL pellets and NaOH. The KCL takes forever to dissolve in hot water and requires a substantial amount of water as well. It yields super clean pseudo but the yields suck. (IMHO) It is kind of cool how the the cloudy, milky alcohol extracts become crystal clear upon the addition of the base. The KOH/freebase goes to the alcohol and the gakk falls to the water layer below. Swim waited too long to separate the layers and the top 91% KOH/pseudo freebase layer crystallized/solidified above the gakk/liquid soap. The reflux is most likely not even necessary. The exothermic heat that the base generates, takes care of "some of" the gakk. JD/Tetra/tone + alkie pulls + recrystallization gives more bang for the buck with the 60's. Or the tetra trap with 240's. I guess it is a cure for those pills that cant bee pulled any other way. Swim titrated to get the salt, rather then gassing. He will try straight KOH to see if it makes a difference. 30% yields are not cost effective regardless of how clean it is. He did not pre-clean the pills first, that may help as well. Maybee some of the pseudo is burning up, either that or the 91% isn't as aggressive a solvent as denatured? Swim is going to pull from the GUPS with denatured and a few drops of HCL to see if any of the pseudo is hiding, if not then he will check the base jar, or it is now encapsulated by the soap? Some yellow oil/sap STILL had to bee manually decanted in the end. Not as much but it was still there. Ware did it go? The big mystery... Hell, the benkeser and GUP chucking might become the preferred method? No disrespect to Fester, he did save Swim from matchbook hell. Swim will revisit the tetra trap, but instead of gassing or titrating, will evap the NP, then decant the sap away from the freebase. May as well stick with the higher yielding method, at least until the KOH arrives. Maybee NaOH is too strong of a base regardless if an equal weight portion of KCL is used? Refuse/Resist
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-05-04 00:21 No 511526				Great write-up
						Nice to see a bee reporting yeilds, that is what this bee has been anxious to know.   30% is not cost effective, but it might become a last ditch cure.  The ease of application and chem acquistion are the appealing points of this cure. Maybee together we can UP the yeilds with this process. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		Shane_Warne (Newbee) 06-05-04 01:47 No 511549				What makes you guys say that the salt isn't...
						What makes you guys say that the salt isn't just salting out the alcohol? The clean sounds like it is working but two layers will form in any case when a certain amount of salt is used.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 06-05-04 02:32 No 511552				SDawg...
						Nice investigative footwork bro. As with an-E-thing applied these daze...it wouldn't be far off base to say that a quarterturn here or there will make or brake yield and gaak content in the end. My initial guess based on what's been shared by Unc is that KOH as opposed to KCL and NAOH will make a difference in yield. This yellow oil that is permeating the scene cannot bee underestimated and it's a yield thief in and of itself. The polymerisation? or sapofication? may actually be at the heart of encapsulation of goodz as you suspect. Ibee did notice an alarming effect this yellow oil has on the japan drier itself when allowed to sit exposed. The Oil will devour the JD and be the only thing remaining after 1 week. That makes for pretty strong inactive ingredient if you ask the kidz! Good field study though man. Looking forward to yield results from KOH alone! Keep fighting the good fight! a little less conversation, a little more reaction
		former_chemist (Hive Bee) 06-05-04 06:10 No 511583				Possible cause of low yeilds
						KOH and NaOH may remove the amine group from the pseudo.  Obviously this is dependent on amount of base and length of reaction.  SWIM has had that problem with reasonably pure pseudo and even meth before when doing a/b to seperate from other salts.  The method definitely works but yields may not be improvable much.
		Scottydog (Hive Addict) 06-05-04 08:27 No 511596				Overbasing with KOH?
						Thanks former! So maybee Swim just overbased and shredded the molecule? Honestly, Swim hasnt used a base other then Na carbonate on pseudo in a very long time. So gradual addition or monitoring of the PH hasn't been necessary. What Swim does remember about his experiences with NaOH and pseudo is that it cant just bee dumped in. With gear it can but not with pseudo. I guess he should have known better. Back to hive basics for Swim. Also keep in mind, Swim's experiment was going on weight of base per 100 pills as listed. The NaOH was predissolved in dh20 before the addition to the alcohol extracts and the separate KCL/water solution was added first. Maybee Swim should have added a little at a time, checking PH along the way and stopping at 12. Sodium carbonate never gets above that and heating for a half hour under 100C has no adverse effect on yield. The amount of base called for in the write-up is excessive? Speculating that a little troubleshooting with the ratios might improve yields. On the UP side, we do know that it eliminates povidone, chlorphen and triprolodine without pre-cleaning. Refuse/Resist
		former_chemist (Hive Bee) 06-05-04 10:16 No 511602				Amount of Base dependent on formulation
						I would expect that the amount of base needed would be very much depend on the formulation.  I can't say for sure on varying the amount of base.  The reaction may require an amount of base and temperature that will damage some pseudo.  I would really expect that some pseudo would be damaged.  Would have to experiment and see what pH and temp psuedo starts to deaminate to know for sure. Gear can't withstand boiling in a strong base too well either but it is much more stable.  Soap can be made with potassium carbonate as well as sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide, IRCC, of course potassium carbonate can't be used since it is insoluble in alcohol.  However that could give you a lower limit on the pH(12.5).
		popi (Hive Bee) 06-06-04 05:02 No 511738				thanks Scot dog
						Good to see you up again.How does your favourite feedstock take to this cure? We really like your post's.,like this one.Very clear and informative.Swip thinks they are a very good read.Post more Scot Dog and stay off the couch./we need ya.Thanks
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-07-04 21:21 No 512057				name brand 120 adventure
						A friend of mine who likes to check out pill formulations and makes a hobby of cracking them tried the new name brand sudafed 120 time release tablets. He found them to be of a new generation specifically designed to frustrate this method. It would seem that Fester wasn't the first to think of it, and they reacted accordingly. I would bet it will spread to other brands. The pills were ground, and then soaked in some toluene for a few hours. After filtering and spreading out to dry, the ground pill mass was extracted with 91% isopropyl alcohol. Upon addition of alky to the pill mass, it began to swell and suck up the alky. More was added to compensate, and a blue colored solution with the consistency of instant gravy was produced. Undeterred, the experimenter attempted filtration. What a waste of time that was! The Blue Goo doesn't filter worth a damn! Oh, he thought, centrifugation might have been a better route... After spending a day or so with serial dilution he got a load of extract. It seems that there is an endless supply of the blue goo in the pills, and further extraction doesn't exhaust it. The last loads filtered no better than the earlier ones. Ever in search of knowledge, the experimenter tried wacking the alcohol extracts with boiling KOH. After about 10 minutes of boiling, the blue color disappeared and changed to white and then tan. Considering the mess that was originally extracted, he considered that a victory and let cool pondering a further boil with base later down the purification scheme. What a suprise that experimenter had upon cooling! The whole mass set up into Jello! Addition of water breaks the Jello, but the design plan is clear from experiment. They don't like this method, and want to protect the crown jewels from  easy access to KOH and alky. The experimenter thinks that when instant gravy is made from an alky extract of pills, it is time to try water instead and whack from there. As to the 33% yield, with Walgreens generic pills which were a version of orange gak, the yield was more like 66% with little effort at max extraction. It seems that may have been just another step to this mess formulation.
		popi (Hive Bee) 06-08-04 00:14 No 512090				Yes Tan Man!
						is better than Blue Gue.This is getting funky,with the colours to set as a guide to following the ever eluse;sive pseudo.Swip and beez loves the funky dark mode for that pristine clean ,clear pinwheels.ala dwarf&ware/.Have you noticed? for example that a basic ph'd h2o with heating gives you alot of product fast .Keep coming Uncle we need this type of free flowing ramble!It's good kArma,Thanks Man... maid wanted to clean and cook....
		wareami (Hive Addict) 06-08-04 00:33 No 512094				Unc....
						Uncle Fess-UP:Brand Name 120's are notorious for being drymatrixformulation (DMF) pills. Atmospheric moisture can kick off the gelling agents. Ibee would say that the use of 91% Iso alky is the culprit for the less than pleasant experience all bees have faced at one time or another playing with those tombstones. Ibee has yet to aquire and employ this KOH technique but I guess he better get crackin on it before it's deemed uneffective like soooooo many of the other methods to come down the pike. Tell yer friend to try completely dry extracts when working with the DMF, it may surprise `em yieldwise. Waterless using Iso and KOH maybe??? a little less conversation, a little more reaction
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-08-04 01:22 No 512108				thinking the other line...
						My experimenter friend was thinking of using LOTS of water since the FDA test says it has to release into water, and the solvent is cheap and non-toxic with no disposal problems. Then some polymer whacking with hydroxide, extraction, purification, and probably another polymer whack with alky/KOH to get the non-water solubles. MY experimenter friend will check into the waterless alcohol extract to see differences. While on the subject...let's check Chem Abstracts Vol. 47 column 3347 to see how dirty sudo and ephedrine are cleaned...of course the sudo free base makes flakes in water, but there are others....sudo free base recrystallized from naptha.....hydrochloride of ephedrine, and presumably pseudoephedrine recystallized from acetone. This doesn't mean a wash with acetone or naptha, it means dissolve in the hot solvent, cool down...get your first crop...filter...boil down some more, then cool and get another crop. My experimenter friend was amazed to see the difference in behavior between Walgreen's generic orange gak, and this blue goo. They are worlds apart.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-08-04 01:34 No 512114				Uncle fess up...
						I'm guessing you think my experimenter friend must have pulled the results from another thread....he is a workaholic like me and if the results weren't posted IN BANNER HEADLINES he probably missed it. If the blue goo is just confirming other results, it has that value. I doubt any other posts had what happens when you hit that goo with KOH.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 06-08-04 04:08 No 512144				Probs with DMF
						The problems with the gelling agents is they continue to grow no matter how much h2o you throw at it. Ibee had 3 grams expected a long time ago when the DMF hit the market and a gallon of water wouldn't phase the pfed mobility in the presense of the gel. Now the KOH, as was stated, Ibee hasn't any experience with YET! But it seems like a good proposal for biting into the gelling agents. And if you're friend is claiming success with it's use Ibee's willing to employ it. My experimenter friend was amazed to see the difference in behavior between Walgreen's generic orange gak, and this blue goo. They are worlds apart. This transition is the culmination of a years slow progression of incorporation judging from Ibee's assessment of keeping tabs on the pogression. It may be part of the plan to get a variety of different formulation petered throughout the market as a confusion scheme. You can't hit what you can't see coming at ya! And they are really shaking shyte up if you want my opinion based on what's been unfolding as of late. And there's a layering pattern it seems getting a tighter reign on the pfed's separation that's been identified in hindsight. The blueness in the 120's was an early indicator for the presense of OrangeII gaak. It was detected via identical work-up techniques using white 60's containing either Chlorpheniramine Maleate or Triprolidine both of which impart a blueness to the pillmass  under certain conditions. When these same conditions were used on the 120's and this blueness reared it's ugly head, it gave bees a readily identifiable culprit that we were dealing with. For lack of a better term it was called OrangeII gaak which was a spinoff of OrangeI gaak which only lasted 3 months tops before it was changed....graduated, if you will, into OrangeII gaak! Different characteristics but clearly of the same family. Now with this new stuff piled onto of other gaaks to varying degrees, it seems one box will be easily extracted and another box bought at the same time at a different location but of the same variety(white60's), you have a different beast to deal with. The big Mixed Bag trick...IMHO The tan stuff(in koh?) most likely is the yellow oil or it could possibly be OrangeI gaak which was initially ID'ed by it's color Orange. This Oily is the substance that's layered onto either OrangeI gaak in some pills and OrangeII gaak in others. This would account for the multi colors being exposed during the same extraction process. It promises to get even more complicated than that! And about the Uncle Fess-UP remark...Ibee's always yanking someones chain but always in good clean fun....Nothing implied in a bad way! It's just a welcome addition to see others helping out in this arena that has a broader extensive knowledge of chemistry. Never read anything offensive into what Ole Ware means! a little less conversation, a little more reaction
		CharlieBigpotato (goat) 06-08-04 12:15 No 512181				an old sucess story:
						swim once had a victory using an absurd amount of water in an a/b one could actually see the polymers getting stretched thinner and thinner until they were tiny, disconnected blobuoles. water is cheap; most np solvents still float on top. it might bee worth trying in a 55 gallon drum with a tiny np layer. (btw, swim tried this over a year ago...perhaps its no longer relevant)
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-09-04 01:47 No 512273				Speak of using absurd amounts
						of things, when swim knew his batch was infected with the Orange2 gakk he would wash the rxn fluid numerous times(with agressive solvents, i.e. TCE Xylene) and after cleamed, used an absurd amount of solvent to net the first pull, becuase it was always the best when OII was concerned. BTW, bees may intereste I used what Ware term's brute force basing/ see, Post 490159 (wareami: "Brute Force Basing", Stimulants) for what swim thought was sound advice as Ware's experience had mimiced Swim's Sorry if it is off topic but hopefully it will help those who have yet to deal with the yellow oil.(or the even worse blue goo) absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-09-04 03:32 No 512284				finesse, not brute force...
						There has to be a better way to deal with blue goo than to use massive amounts of solvents. Somebody I know has a project to work on.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 06-09-04 04:28 No 512288				Agreed...
						Uncle Fester has a point and I'm inclined to agree. Solvent Strength=attraction in some scenarios and is more appealing to the gaaks under deliberate conditions. This is lieu of solvent quantity, even if that solvent is h2o. Brute force does work when your backed into a corner with no way out but the trick is in not getting into that corner in most cases where gaaks are concerned. As stated with the 3g expected Jello attack, Ibee threw a gallon of h2o at it and it grew to it's surrounding pool size. Not a good thing. Others claim success with even more extrodinary amounts of h2o to claim the goodz but this is the first I'm hearing of it. Who knows....maybe Ibee stood at the threshold and turned back before the miracle happened. That would be encouraging if so. Back to the ole diving board? Back in the day when the gaaks were easily identifiable, remedies were swift and required less finesse. Today some manipulation applied to the right G-Spot can have some screaming effects on some organiz-M`s. And these kinky pharmers are aways game for a good screwing if you ask Ibee! a little less conversation, a little more reaction
		former_chemist (Hive Bee) 06-09-04 07:04 No 512321				Reaching a point of no return
						The newer pills seem to have something to gakk everything.  They may have ingredients that react to high pH and various solvents. The conditions they can't defend against completely because they occur under ordinary circumstances are low pH (stomach acid), ethanol(booze), and water.  They definitely react to high pH (some with anything higher than 7.5 or so).  It seems that some also react with acetone.  Some also behave badly when introduced to a nonpolar solvent.  The final condition they react oddly with is excess heat. But even though they don't react badly with water you can still wind up with a mess that doesn't respond as expected. Of course with water it is possible to extract all of the goods but it takes a big amount.  Low pH isn't a cure either because some pills won't react badly to low pH but they also won't give up the goods till the pH rises to above 5.5 or higher. Finess is definitely required but it is increasingly reaching the point where starting from scratch is less time consuming than extraction and RP/I methods. I have been able to confirm that 1L is the standard amount of water used when testing dissolution of pills.  This would seem to indicate that 240mg versions would be best for brute force methods.  Of course this won't work after a gakk has been activated unless the gakk can be deactivated. I have started a separate thread on water extraction,  I still have some unanswered questions on that topic.  The first post is Post 512170 (former_chemist: "Pharmacopeia method of extraction", Stimulants).
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-09-04 10:55 No 512363				Re:Fester, Ware
						Swim was just referring to the post-rxn fluid of OII gakks and not basing pseudo.  Sorry for the confusion and if it is off topic. Give me just a minute, while I clarify.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 06-09-04 13:56 No 512392				Damn Glue :•ю
						Give me just a minute, while I clarify. Damn Gluey: Just when I was starting to beelieve you could fork An-E-Thing!!! I think the link provided, if read properly, reflected your intent for posting it. It's all good where extraction is concerned though when you consider that most want to get in, get it, and get out as fast as the chems allow. But there are limits that allow varying results. As stated...sometimes at one time or another we've all stood at that threshold without pushing the limits for fear of walking away empty handed. This is where knowing chemical properties and behaviors will make or break a method or procedure. I lost count of the many times I've stood there scratching my head knowing what the book says, only to be met with disappointing results when application time was at hand. Chemistry is not easy and harder when you're newbees like US attempting to decypher the chemspeak. Most of learn from attempting things we little about until we do shyte. Kinda like learning how not to get the toast from the toaster with a fork! We walk away all the wiser AWE the way back to the drawing board, but giving up is ever part of the equation until we see results instaed of stars! There are many variations that can be employed and the perservering bees learn to flip things every which way they can before coming up with a suitable work-around. That is how alot of the extraction methods are born. A little Tweek here, A little Tweek there, Here a Tweek... There a....oh...nevermind...you get the point! Not all minds think alike, and I think I could hear a collective sigh of relief at that last statement. We have some genius minds helping out here at the Hive and for that I breath a sigh of relief when I see those minds in action. I'm especially looking forward to what Methyl_Ethyl is able to provide via the USP to assist Former in his quest in the separate thread mentioned. Keeping Plugging shyte with that fork Bro from one toasted bee to another! a little less conversation, a little more reaction
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-09-04 14:05 No 512395				Re: A little Tweek here, A little Tweek there,
						A little Tweek here, A little Tweek there, Here a Tweek... There a....oh...nevermind...you get the point!   The story of swim's adventures, how did you know, Ware.  With the ability and mindset to experiment on established methods, one can sometimes make them better. Keeping Plugging shyte with that fork Bro from one toasted bee to another! No problem, Ware. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 06-09-04 14:44 No 512401				one more variable
						I completely agree with former_chemist's observation, but add one more variable for consideration: variance between lots of the same product. More than one time I have found a route to extract pseudo cleanly from a particular product, only to find that the same process will not work with the next lot number of the same product. I figure out the additional or different step needed, and the next lot number reacts differently than the previous one. My observations (based on multiple extractions from generic white 60's with CM and with trip) lead me to suspect that each product may have several concurrent standard formulations, each involving a eudragit type polymer with a different characteristic from the one predominant in the previous batch. Rather than having multiple Eudragit or "Orange" polymers in each lot, they may be using a single gakk polymer per lot, but using a different one in successive lots. This was noted at one point in one product when one lot had only Orange I, the next contained Orange II, and the next had a Eudragit polymer (distictive smell noted) and the next had a different one (visual indication for verification, smell different, different solubilities). None of the four batches extracted cleanly the same way. Had the lots been combined, a clean extraction of any of them would likely have been impossible. Which reminds me of that last batch of 120's I tried to extract pseudo from... mostly harmless
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-09-04 19:45 No 512459				Gakk-go-round
						More than one time I have found a route to extract pseudo cleanly from a particular product, only to find that the same process will not work with the next lot number of the same product. I figure out the additional or different step needed, and the next lot number reacts differently than the previous one. This bee has experienced the exact same quirky happening in extractomania as of late.  The same pillz, alternating gakks. For example swim can go one county over and get the current lot of generic 1/box 60s/ with none of the new Eudragit.  However in his home sweet home town,(who were out of stock at Gluce's favorite store for almost 3 weeks) the same pillz are infected w/ Eudragit.  Swim will take note of the lot #s and see if they are indeed different. Also swim has noticed some other pillz (30s), swim's last resort are playing the suprise gakk game as well. Nice to know Geez has noticed the same phenomenon, this bee thought it was in his head and/or lack of lab skills.  In other words he would try in vain to find a different variable among extractins that might change the outcome, but alas he seen it almost has to bee in the formulationz/ absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-09-04 22:39 No 512491				the goo may not spread!
						I did some patent checking, and in particular US Pat. 6,699,502. The blue goo wasn't invented to frustrate extraction, rather it is the system used to time delay the release of the sudo once it has been swallowed. If it was put into the 30 mg red hot, then the cold sufferer would get no relief from the pill he had taken. That would lead to bad sales to cold sufferers, and so wouldn't be tolerated at corporate HQ. So long as the 30 mg red hot can be cracked by this method..."the spice will flow"...
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 06-10-04 13:54 No 512581				old idea that got no attention
						here's my thought and question... all of the gaaks have to be consumable. the are all rather large molecules, being some chain of carbons attached to other chains in varying degrees, but et al they are large when they are going into the body. so what happens to them then? well i've been doing a slew of reading about these chems. we've ben approaching this sstuff with a 'out to get us' attitude, but for the most part the gaaks aren't a conspiracy to stop us. atleast not most of them. almost all of the new gaaks are drug delivery designs. heres an example about an abstract on eurodigit http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=8dfq37mgrm4txn14gp81&referrer=parent&backto=issue%2C1%2C10%3Bjournal%2C7%2C23%3Bsubject%2C6%2C25; moast of the gaaks are designed to be broken down by one or more enzymes or naturally occuring microorganisms in our bodies. some are designed to be not broken down at all. like in the case of the two eurdigits. one acts as the container for the drug and will not be broken down, the other is brokendown by a change in ph. when the second eurodigit is broken down the drug is released into the body and the other eurodigit is passed. maybe this explains why some pills loose psuedo to NP's, the container molecules are NP solubile. similar processes go on with other ph activated gaaks. at low ph they release the goods, at high phs they form stronger bonds. i'm by no means the man with the answers but maybe mimicing the bodies natural processes can help. activate the breakdown of the delivery system, release the psuedo then clean. perhaps the problems are happening cause were getting the psuedo and the delivery system. i think it is something worth examining even if i'm gonna be doing it alone. in several abstracts form the above site the delivery systems are being described as being tested in simulated gastro intestinal scenarios. perhaps we could find a description of said methods of experimentation and try them for ourselves?>?
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-10-04 20:37 No 512626				avoid time release formulas
						The patent lit agrees that the goo found in the time release pills isn't a consiracy out to get us, but it certainly does its job of inhibiting release of the active ingredient into water until it is quite well diluted, and it does so over a long period of time. I think one is well advised to steer clear of them and stick to red hots. Eudragit and other sudo solubility mimicing polymers do have other legitimate purposes, but they are put into red hots for the purpose of getting dragged into the extract. The World Patent I posted up earlier makes that quite clear. That polymer and related ones are also easily cleaved with KOH and alky, and then they pose no problem. The goo used in time release compositions is a lot more compicated if you check the patent formulations, and not so easily broken up.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-11-04 00:34 No 512662				60's and 120's logic
						I'm puzzled as to the popularity of late of using 60's and 120's as one's starting material. From what I've seen, they aren't cheaper per gram of pseudo obtained. They also pull you into the world of time release, and the latest patents are goo release. This is just asking for a beating. I hope that the reason isn't because the blister packs on red hots are too tough for tender fingers. That's the only reason I can fathom. Those 60's and 120's are sure as hell a lot easier to pop out of their bubbles, and there is a logic to that. I doubt that the 30 mg red hot will ever disappear, because that would be abandoning the flagship brand, and surrendering shelf space to competitors. It would be like Coke giving up the regular brand to concentrate on Cherry and Vanilla Coke. The marketing folks at the company HQ would pull out guns and start shooting before agreeing to such a goofy plan. The red hot formula is easy to crack, regardless of what the patent hype says, so again..."Why this fixation with 60's and 120's?".
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 04:28 No 512714				Before Gluecifer had a particular brand of...
						Before Gluecifer had a particular brand of sixties that he choose because of just 2 inactive ingredients.  Then the new gakk.  As for the 120s, they are almost always on the shelf when nothing else is, well except maybe red hots! Those are the reasons swim chose those two sources as precursors, but as of late he has been collecting the redz and what Fester said makes alot of sense. The only disadvantge to the 30s is the # of boxes one must aquire, but that is an advantage of being a patient prudent bee. help me!!! connect the goddamn dots!
		jackhole (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 04:33 No 512716				probably because they're red
						Probably because they're red, and in it lies fear that the finished product will be red albeit irrelevant to the quality. Jizzy Jizzy Bang Bang
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 05:14 No 512727				glue
						are you talking about the 60's with Chlor and MG stearate, and MCC? they are still ungaakified in swibbs neck of the woods. so far anyway. the biggest draw to the 120's here is becuase the shelves are packed with em. they are so abundant that finding the way to get em clean would keep swibb supplied till bush left office. they aren't kept behind trhe pharmacy counters cause noone steals em and the shelves are overstocked. even a low yield like 60% makes the damn things worthy.
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 05:18 No 512728				Good Point
						Good point bout the red hots that swim overlooked Jackhole!  Will the KOH wash rid the red? I doubt it, but swim thinks an a/b would do da trick. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 05:21 No 512729				the red cooks out
						in swibbs experience the residual red cooks out
		gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 05:27 No 512731				Cooking out the red dye
						the residual red cooks out Swim has not experienced this as he tries to elimiate as much red dye as possible, could you provide some more info on it, swim's not sure if you mean in the rxn or the pfed extraction. absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 05:39 No 512734				in the rxn
						the rxn cooks out the rest of the red dyes in swibbs expereince. h3po3 and rp. the psuedo is at most pink at the time of rxn.
		former_chemist (Hive Bee) 06-11-04 07:35 No 512754				Red Dye
						There are a couple different red dyes out there. The easiest one to deal with is the iron oxide dye. The Merck lists the different dyes.  Fortunately, some people are allergic to these things so they are always listed on the box (at least in the US).  Wouldn't do good to kill an allergy sufferer with an allergy attack.
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 06-12-04 01:25 No 512895				quick idea about the use of NaOH
						ok, so NaOH + KCl with the addition of heat yields KOH and NaCl correct? So if KOH is a dificult thing to procure in your neighborhood then shouldn't the proper ratios of NaOH and and KCl added to your pill mass yield KOH and NaCl during the cleaning process? KCl is just as abundant as NaCl and NaOH is just as easily gotten as NaCl for most of us. swibb would have tried this experiment on his own, but just had the epiphiny a few moments ago. any ones thoughts will swibb runs to our friend the hardware store?
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-12-04 22:27 No 513040				getting the red out
						The NaOH plus KCl solution is more a solvent precip thing when added to the alcohol. It doesn't "make" KOH, it is that this specie is the one that should go into the alcohol solution and precip out NaCl as it goes in. I haven't tried it, but it should go as it is basic inorg chem. As to the color from red hots, follow the procedure given above, and there is no carry in of color. This process should be repeated again with brand name red hots, but it was done originally with orange gak laced generic red hots and cut through them like butter. So much for their patent...Hah-Hah.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-23-04 21:30 No 515043				once more with the name brand...
						To see if this method is general to all red hots, the brand name sudafed pills were ground up in a blender. Then they were soaked in roughly 2 ml toluene for each pill that went into the mix. The experimenter was thinking about skipping that step and letting the KOH chew up the extracted wax, but this package said candelilla wax, and so he decided to play it safe. That turned out to be a good move because after he warmed up the toluene wash in some hot water and let it work for an hour, just filtering the toluene wash was difficult. It seems candelilla wax is chosen because of its ability to make filtrations difficult. After the pills were filtered free of toluene, they were spread out to air dry, and once dry, soaking extractions using 91% isopropyl alcohol were done. Filtering the several soaks was much more troublesome than was filtering the toluene soak. All told, about 2 ml of alcohol was used for each pill in the mix and a deep reddish orange extract was produced. The extract was put into a beaker, and heating was begun. As the solution got hot, about 7 grams of KOH for each 100 red hots was added. Soon the beaker was at boil, and within a few minutes the red-orange color faded and the solution took on a milky appearance. At the bottom of the beaker, an oily layer grew. In this case, the oil was clear, and there was a bit more of it than in the case of generic red hots. After 25 or 30 minutes of boiling, the beaker was set aside to cool. It was noticed that the milky color was caused by a bunch of white flakes in the alcohol, so it was allowed to sit overnight. In the morning, all the white flakes had settled out leaving a clear alcohol solution. The oily layer on the bottom had turned dark coffee color. It was found to be very easy to decant off the alcohol from the flakes and oil because the flakes had formed a very gummy mat. The alcohol was evaporated down, and when nearly dry, some water was added as in the previous experiment to rinse the bottom of the beaker. That was poured into a sep funnel. Then the beaker was rinsed with a couple of portions of toluene to get the sudo dissolved. These rinses were poured into the sep funnel, and the funnel shaken...then the water layer drained off, and another portion of water added and shaken again... The toluene was separated, allowed to stand for a couple hours to shed water, then gassed to give 50% plus yield of sudo hydrochloride of high quality. No polymer behavior was noted during the extractions and washings. From this experiment, it is clear that this method works with all red hots. The candelilla wax caused a different behavior during hydrolysis, but its main effect was upon filtration. Using more than 2 ml of alcohol per pill would have increased extraction yield, but the process was becoming time consuming with filtration issues. So much for their patent, it no doubt took their lawyers much more time and effort to file the patent paperwork than it took to crack their invention...hey guys at Warner Lambert....pay me off next time and maybe I'll keep my mouth shut.
		former_chemist (Hive Bee) 06-23-04 21:38 No 515046				take their money and keep talking
						Better yet take their money and keep talking.  Besides it is too much fun outwitting them.  I suspect that wax was chosen for its low cost rather than increased filtration difficulties.  I could be wrong but big corporations tend to look at the bottom line first and everything else later.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 06-24-04 00:12 No 515067				whoami?
						I could be wrong but big corporations tend to look at the bottom line first and everything else later. My biggest fear in awe this is that knowing bees and the principal endeavors that guide their determination, always points to any bee of above average intelligence looking at any line first and everything else later Never one to rain on anyones parade and besides whoami to say that any new workaround will potentially yank pills from the shelves across the nation or the globe? After all, Ibee's an outwitter from the GitGO, so much so the pricks look at ya crosseyed when a poor bee has brake problems. However, Congrats UncleFester. I can't keep from wondering if we might be outwitting ourselves sometimes! We are that Good ya know? Don't be insulted by the above conotations...I'm all for helping the collective provided there are no countermeasures in place such as we see in the likes of the newest legislation regarding "Hard to Extract"(OTC) "East to Extract"(BTC w/id) But ya never know....whoami might be hopelessly locked into a state of paranoia from excessively outwitting the pricks! Remember, it's not, "Hi, how are you?" it's "How high are you?"
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-24-04 02:28 No 515092				keeping it quiet
						You know I'm going to hype this procedure to the max in the upcoming 7th ed of SOMM, and if my experimenter friend cracks the time release formulas, that procedure will be hyped as best I can too. It's just not in me to keep a secret, and it is contrary to the spirit of writing a book on the subject that people plunk down $30 for. If their "unextractable" formula is so easily turned to trash, it is their team of chemists, patent lawyers and marketing men who pushed the "unextractable" idea who are at fault. Beyond that, keeping recipes secret may be fine for the military, but it's not appropriate for this field. I could bear no more torture coming to the site to pick up bits of news, and see endless extraction threads going nowhere on these things. This procedure is relatively non-toxic, doesn't present big disposal problems, and is fairly easy on solvent consumption. I just hope I don't have to look at another chromatography thread, because that method has none of those characteristics. They may well outlaw pseudo pills, or fill them with the inactive isomer. When that time comes, the next steps will be taken.
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 06-24-04 02:43 No 515093				Reaction Results Anybody?
						Anyone have reaction results yet from such an extraction? Looking forward to the ending of this particular story. In it's current state it's still somewhat of a cliffhanger. If swim's own order of KOH would pick up the pace to that of at least a snail he'd try to finish the story himself but at the pace of apparent responses to having tried this it still looks like he might still bee a contender for first reporting some genuine reaction finalities. He was just another tree in the forest whom nobody heard on his final fall
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-24-04 03:01 No 515094				one thing left to do...
						That is to find out if NaOH and KCl is equivalent in place of KOH. I give you my word bond that the results are genuine and the pills are cracked just that easily.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-24-04 03:23 No 515099				it wouldn't be the first time...
						that I've been first to publish the correct way to extract a variety of pills....SOMM 4 date written 1995...first to publish that the pills then on the market needed a toluene pre-soak before water extraction....SOMM 5... written in 2001...first to publish that pills modeled after US Pat 6,136,864 are easily sidestepped by using a bit of NaOH in alky to base, then extract with solvent...this procedure has been mentioned in subsequent patents (BTW my SOMM 4 extraction procedure was repeatedly mentioned in that patent)...where have you been...born yesterday?? SOMM 6 (written in 2002) I screwed up a bit, suggesting that steam would cover this upcoming gak I, while it only works with ephedrine. The pills weren't even on the market at the time to play with, so I feel excused from the error. Tell me about your background so I can judge your fitness to decide what is genuine.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-24-04 03:44 No 515102				waiting breathlessly....
						For your reply showing I wasn't the one who thought up those methods...although the toluene soak is so simple that I'm sure many cookers thought it up themselves....cite publication, and then you may sit upon the " genuine sifting throne"...
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 06-24-04 04:16 No 515107				No Title Dispute But Electro Request
						Although I've never been one to dispute your previous pill cracking titles (it would bee cool if you were awarded belts like they give in pro wrestling) I do have one request. That you revise your electro technique to include accurate numbers for the ester making, the electrolyte mixture and the  ideal current to pass through it (and duration) using pseudoephedrine as the reductant as an addendum to the ephedrine info you first gave. Pseudo seems to have different requirements than ephedrine for this. I really like the prices of palladium as of late. They are now back down to the levels they were whe you first released your electro info. I hear the Russians artificially inflated Pd's value for awhile and that's why the prices skyrocketed so hideously for awhile. He was just another tree in the forest whom nobody heard on his final fall
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-24-04 04:28 No 515109				chuck the sulfuric
						in the catholyte and in making ester...just make ester with perchloric and let acetic be catholye and you have greatly improved the process...but if the pills aren't REALLY clean they will foul out the cathode regardless...I did my first run on this way before gak, and now just getting a clean pill extract is a challenge. A later ed of Advanced Techniques...
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 06-25-04 22:54 No 515437				boiling down the alky
						When evaporating down the alky after the crap has been separated off, be sure to hit boiling at least once, and for the name brand pills bump up the KOH used to 10 grams per hundred pills, as the name brands are gooier, or just add a bit more while boiling down the separated product. 6 or 7 grams per hundred just isn't enough for the extra gooey brands.
		evilscripter69 (Stranger) 07-06-04 06:14 No 517708				RE: where to find KCL
						try local hardware/grocery store, its the more expensive water softener salt.
		Buckshot (Hive Bee) 07-08-04 15:19 No 518170				filter step
						This is a super thread Fester said, "just filtering the toluene wash was difficult. It seems candelilla wax is chosen because of its ability to make filtrations difficult." Now what I don't get is why would a chemist with much more experience than myself filter the toluene wash, when it could be decanted with ease using a turkey baster? I must be missing something here. Drop Bush! Not Bombs.
		12cheman12 (Hive Bee) 07-08-04 15:49 No 518173				because with a filter, you just dump it all in
						because with a filter, you just dump it all in and walk away. When you come back you have complete seperation of toluene from the solids. When you try decating by pouring or using a dropper, there is no way you can obtain the same results, chances are your tolune could still be cloudy, there is no way of draining the pill mass of the toluene that is saturating it with a dropper by pouring off. I thought that would of been quite obvious, must of been one of those really obvious things you overlook sometimes yeah.
		abominator (Stranger) 07-08-04 19:31 No 518212				Both Methods Combined
						After a 24 hr. soak, could one not decant off(baster) the clear toulene and then filter, to save some time? "Yeah motherfucker I'm high" -Dax Gluecifer69
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-09-04 02:43 No 518312				toluene soak
						The idea of the pre-soak is to remove some of the gum load, and hit at the povidone at the same time. It is a 10 year old time honored tradition that I was thinking about chucking until I saw the new wax, candelilla, and went back to standards. You want to remove as much of that as you can before doing an extraction, because it may gum up the particles you want to extract. The let settle and turkey baster method is good for supernatant, but the load of ground up pills will still hold a lot of solvent/ gum load, and filtering is the way to get a dry pill mass for evaporation for the extraction. I had never run into a pill mass before that just filtering after the toluene soak wasn't oh so easy. The difficulty on filtering the isopropyl alky extraction was also a new experience, and I have extracted many varieties of pills over the past 15 years. The thought which came to my head was "centrifuge", and then decant to get a pellet of pill mass free of solvent. This method is often used in the biological sciences where gooey shit is a daily fact of life. It is new to pills, and slows up extraction. It has no other harmful effects, however, once filtered and led into the KOH boil.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-09-04 23:26 No 518458				to clarify...
						This was my first crack at the new generation brand name Sudafed pills, and the main goal was to examine their ingredients and properties. The alcohol extracts were largely done by the "let settle, and decant" method after the filtering problems became apparent. The filter plugging material is in the extract, and the pill mass remains free flowing. My belief was that the decanted alcohol needed filtering because there was suspended matter in it that I didn't want to pull into the product, and I wanted to see if the filter plugging property would fade as the extraction went along. It didn't. The procedure I followed was a logical examination of these pills.
		CharlieBigpotato (goat) 07-10-04 22:40 No 518608				defloculant added to alcohol solution?
						i wonder how a defloculant would do on the dirty alcohol?
		12cheman12 (Hive Bee) 07-11-04 07:05 No 518662				so let me get this straight...
						so let me get this straight... I dissolve my pseudo in alky (96% ethanol) Then boil this with KOH for an hour or so Might be good idea to let sit over night for particles to settle to the bottom. Remove the oily gunk layer that has formed and throw out. And now one should be left with an ethanol/water solution containg pseudo FB. Now the workup is just usual from here? does this sound right uncle fester?
		Apis_dorsata (Stranger) 07-11-04 07:27 No 518664				pseudo precipitation
						swim was wondering if he could use geezmeister's pseudo microwave precipitation technique, following festers procedure
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-11-04 11:46 No 518685				gummy alcohol solution
						It's only the brand name sudafed pills which now have this filter plugging property, and I'm not sure how harmful just letting the suspended material go into the KOH boil would be. It does filter out, but it takes time, and changing of filter papers. The latter causes loss of yield unless one would soak the plugged filter in fresh alcohol to recover the product. I think any variation on the procedure which gets the gak into solution, and then breaks it up with a hot hydroxide hydrolysis, is likely to be successful. I would only be speculating on how complete the gak break up would be using other methods without actually trying them and looking at the product recovered. Do feel free to experiment away with all sorts of variations on the theme...hell, maybe even hot dilute HCl in water would break the ester links in the polymers. The only reservation I would have with that is wondering what the hot acid solution would do to the pseudo.
		12cheman12 (Hive Bee) 07-11-04 13:11 No 518689				Has it been proven yet that NaOH has the same...
						Has it been proven yet that NaOH has the same effects as KOH, because swim is about to order some KOH but already has lots of NaOH.
		abominator (Stranger) 07-11-04 17:50 No 518718				Re: hell, maybe even hot dilute HCl in water...
						hell, maybe even hot dilute HCl in water would break the ester links in the polymers. The only reservation I would have with that is wondering what the hot acid solution would do to the pseudo. What about H2SO4?  There was a post on the hive in which a fella cracked the orange with Hcl.  Swim will search and provide a link, on a later edit. EDITPost 463406 (geezmeister: "orange goo rinses!", Stimulants)     Read the whole thread. "Yeah motherfucker I'm high" Gluecifer69
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-11-04 22:53 No 518754				to crack the gak...
						It should be in solution. Since the polymers were chosen to mimic pseudo's solubility, hydroxide in water would not hit the polymer while it was in solution. Maybe this changes when the polymer is hot and in water... As to sulfuric replacing hydrochloric, of course that would work for the ester hydrolysis...it's this whole acid treatment idea that I am kind of worried about because I have letters in my files from folks telling me about the bad things that happened to their ephedrine when it was heated with dilute acid. They reported mostly tar as the product. I have never had the occasion to repeat their experiments, but this might be a case deserving of it. Of the two, sulfuric, I think would be less likely to mess up the product...and one could then do a water extraction a la the old days of roughly 10 years ago. Give it a try, and see what happens at 10% by weight sulfuric.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-16-04 01:59 No 519681				once more with KCl and NaOH
						Walmart store brand 30 mg red hots were chosen for this experiment so that a wide variety of red hots will have been worked with. They were ground with no solvent presoak, and then extracted with 91% isopropyl alcohol. It was noticed that this brand's formulation is also of the filter plugging-floating shit type. Rather than run through a load of filters, the soaks were just decanted off the pill mass and allowed to sit overnight to settle most of the floating shit. The extract was then split up into two equal portions. The first portion was heated to boiling with the addition of 10 grams KOH per 100 pills used. This hydrolysis proceeded just like the brand name sudfed pills, and a milky solution was quickly obtained from the previously red organge solution with a clear oil layer at the bottom. After boiling for half an hour, it was set aside to settle the white flakes. The result was a clear alcohol solution which was decanted off the flake bed and processed as before to give rougly 70% yield of high quality pseudo. The other half was put into a beaker, and a concentrated solution of 10 grams NaOH and 10 grams KCl in water was added. This was an additional 20 ml of water to bring the two into solution. It was added, and soom the mixture was at boil. A large red layer formed at the bottom of the beaker, and the color in the top alcohol layer didn't fade nearly as well as with KOH. After a period of boiling, the experimenter decided to add KOH pellets to see if that would clear it up as in the first run. It helped, but the results were nowheres nearly so good as with just KOH. It's possible that the water needed for the reaction was just stuck in the bottom layer and wouldn't react. It's also possible that if anhydrous isopropyl had been used, the water solution add would have went better.Gas line de-icer isn't a common store item this time of year, so 91% isporopyl was used. I am disappointed with this variation.
		CharlieBigpotato (goat) 07-16-04 15:03 No 519762				freezing?
						i'm curious if anyone has played around with freezing (slowly) various aqueous solutions of gacked pills? perhaps the polymers could bee induced to grab onto something added to the solution (sugars?) that they liked more than the p-fed.
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 07-17-04 07:03 No 519850				from my research
						the gaaks are encapsulating the p/fed, so they aren't likely to just re-attach to another chemical. they aren't actualy bonded to the p'fed so far as i have figured out but are ocked around the pfed because it is bonded to itself (kind of) all of the gaaks seem to have two parts. one part is tougher and doesn't biodegrade, the second part is bound to the first with the p/fed inside IS degradeable and acts as a 'door'. when it degrades the p/fed is released. some of the degredation however IS influenced by temp. have been playing with high temps, but low might work too http://www.pharmcast.com/Patents/Yr2003/Oct2003/101403/6632457_Hydrogel101403.htm http://www.devicelink.com/mpb/archive/97/11/003.html http://cccc.uochb.cas.cz/Vol/60/No11/19951986.html http://www.aaps.org/search/view.asp?ID=39305
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-17-04 12:17 No 519888				mighty KOH
						The KOH is just cutting right through everything they put into those pills without so much as a solvent presoak. It suprises me that NaOH is so poor in comparison.Maybe if even more water was added to the boil to try to get a homogenous mixture...but then would the gak fall right out as an oil layer, plus in some instances white flakes???
		wareami (Hive Addict) 07-17-04 16:17 No 519915				Almost back from HIGH-ATE-US
						Almost back from HIGH-ATE-US And that new show...."Pimp My SpaceShip" This may provide an explanation regarding NAOH versus KOH EUDRAGIT® RL 100 and EUDRAGIT® RS 100 are practically insoluble in petroleum ether, 1N sodium hydroxide and water. The polymer is precipitated from EUDRAGIT® RL 12,5/RS 12,5 when mixed with petroleum ether in a ratio of 1:1. When mixed with 1N sodium hydroxide or water, the solution becomes cloudy or precipitates. Uncle Fester: One can assume that the filter pluggers are the cloudy precipitates. Remember, it's not, "Hi, how are you?" it's "How high are you?"
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 07-17-04 21:13 No 519937				ok so guess where the yellow oil went?
						ok here's one for ya. and this is prolly in the worng place but fuckit. so swibb cleaned some reds with acid/soda thingie, and it looked pretty clean,someone suggested swibb do a a/b to see if any yellow oil came along. well, it did, which was a bit of a let down, so swibb set aside the two layer solute to think out other ideas. lo and fucking behold, guess where the yellow went? into the water. how can swibb tell this you may ask? cause all the red went up and all the yellow went down. ok granted the KOH method is seeming like the cure all, but its another non OTC chem swibbs gota get and this makes swibb nervous a little.  he'll get over it, but he thought others might find the little yellow down thing interesting.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-17-04 23:19 No 519971				plugging filters
						I'm sure the filter plugging material isn't eudragit as the alky extract is neutral or maybe a bit on the acid side...if it were only that easy to remove the stuff...I'm sure this floating filter plugging shit is purposely designed and added just for the purpose of stopping up a filter.
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 07-19-04 18:51 No 520311				sand filter
						The floating filter pluggers can be removed with a sand filter. mostly harmless
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-19-04 21:16 No 520327				filter plugging patent
						Check out US Patent 6,197,314
		wareami (Hive Addict) 07-19-04 22:29 No 520346				On My Way....
						For bees convience...I'll add the patent tag... Patent US6197314 Remember, it's not, "Hi, how are you?" it's "How high are you?"
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 07-23-04 05:55 No 521040				sand with AC
						Sand with activated carbon added sounds convincing Tighten Up!  (UH)
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-25-04 02:49 No 521466				once again with NaOH and KCl
						To determine if the two phases seen in a NaOH addition to alcohol was the problem with the last run using NaOH, Walmart store brand 30 mg red hots were extracted with 91% isopropyl alcohol. Then 10 grams of NaOH per hundred pills plus 10 grams KCl per hundred pills was added in water solution. Then as the mix was warming up, water was slowly added until finally a homogenous mix was achieved. This was roughly a 50% dilution with water. Then the mix was brought to boil for 45 minutes. No change was noted in the color of the mix, it stayed a deep red orange. Taking the destruction of color as a flag for the occurance of hydrolysis, next to none happened. With KOH, the color was gone within minutes, and all the polymers were cleaved a bit after that. It might be worthwhile to examine what properties the residue has after this procedure, but it doesn't look hopeful. It seems that orange gak skips through this variation of the procedure.
		evilscripter69 (Stranger) 07-25-04 07:06 No 521495				Do not use NaOH
						was a failure for SWIE too, guess its off to the chemical supply house here, as i cannot find it anywhere else, except for hydroponics store but its in a solution and pricewise? The  Prepuce method works but SPD is a pain in the ass slow process. Thanks Uncle, youre the man
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 07-25-04 08:58 No 521510				hey fester,
						wouldn't the naoh and kcl experiment work better if they were combined in wiehgt smatching the molar ratios rrather than equal weight?  the ratio is 1:1.865, so to react out all of 10 g's of nacl you'd need 18.65g kcl.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-25-04 20:19 No 521593				horseshoes and hand granades
						The experimenter in this particular instance didn't feel like doing calculations. He has watched five minute segments of Martha Stewart doing her thing in the kitchen, and never saw her once do a calculation. It would detract from the cooking pleasure, and since the idea was only to check out an idea and not to optimize it, it was left out. However, since that same experimenter wanted to check out the residue of the former experiment, and xs of KCl was added to the broth for the boil down. He boiled it down to one fourth the original volume, meaning if he had 100 ml of alcohol extract, and it ended up being diluted to 200 ml with water to get one phase, he boiled it down to 50 ml. At that point, it no longer smelled much like alcohol. He sat it aside to cool, and it turned into a semi-crystalline mass, still red orange colored. It was poured into a sep funnel, and toluene was added. Low and behold, the orange gak stayed in the water layer instead of chasing the pseudo into the toluene. After separating the layers and then another wash with water, he was left with a clear toluene layer, a kind of very slightly pink water layer, and floating shit. This was filtered to remove floating shit, and the water separated. The toluene was poured into a beaker to settle any entrained water for a couple of hours, and then gassed with HCl to give maybe 35% yield of apparently high quality pseudo HCl crystals. This variation is markedly inferior to KOH in alcohol...maybe it is time to seriously look hard at where to easily pick up KOH besides those "scientific supply houses".
		evilscripter69 (Newbee) 07-28-04 12:38 No 522240				KOH may be found at ..
						The 24/7 department store we all love, in the plumbing section. Yellow bottle next to the bigger white one. Ingredients are NaOH and KOH. evap in microwave for 2 1/2 hours(depending on how much you use) BE SURE TO USE BOROSILICATE GLASSWARE ! When it's become a real wet pasty layer, remove it and let it cool down, At this point work it frequently to prevent it from solidifying into a rock hard mass. Keep dicing it until its become somewhat powdered. now its ready to go use it at 150% the ratio Fester recommended. 15 grams per 100 pills.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-28-04 23:50 No 522324				still again with NaOH and KCl
						In this experiment, Walmart store brand red hots were extracted with 91% isopropyl alcohol without solvent presoak. The extract was placed in a beaker, and an excess of KCl was put into the beaker. This excess was around 20 to 25 grams KCl for each 100 red hots. Then as it warmed up, NaOH was added in small portions with lots of stirring. This is because KCl only dissolves in alcohol to the rate of about a gram per 250 ml, so it was desired that there be KCl to react with the added NaOH. The add of the 10 grams of NaOH per 100 pills took about 20 minutes, and it seemed that a nice preciptate of NaCl was formed as a result. The mix was then heated to boiling for half an hour, and the initial red orange color faded a bit to a color that my kid's crayon set calls mellon. It was then evaporated down, and very slowly at the last to keep the pseudo from getting cooked. Once it turns yellow, it is fried...maybe that is "pseudo burn"...the last bits were done just using room temp evaporation, but I'm sure hot water heating would be OK. The residue was dissolved in water to suck up the salt, KCl, NaCl, etc...and poured into a sep funnel. The beaker was rinsed with a couple of portions of toluene with stirring to get the residue at least into suspension, and the rinses poured into the sep funnel. The sep funnel was shaken hard, and let to sit. LOts of floating shit appeared, but with time it settled to give an orange water layer, a clear toluene layer, and floating shit. The water was drained off just short of the floating shit, and a fresh load of water was added. This was shaken, and after some time, it settled into a clear water layer, a clear toluene layer, and floating shit. The water was drained down to the floating shit, and then the liquid was filtered to remove floating shit. The liquid was poured back into the sep funnel, and the water layer drained off. The toluene layer was poured into a beaker to settle entrained water. After about half an hour, it was poured into a clean beaker, and then gassed with dry HCl. The precipitated pseudo HCl was filtered and washed with fresh toluene. At this scale, it was most convenient to just remove the filter paper from the gravity filter, let the paper and attached pseudo soak in fresh toluene, then remove the paper and attached pseudo, and put it back into the funnel and squeeze to dry. The ghetto technique was by design... After spreading out to dry on a plate..this method gave maybe 50% of what seems to be high quality pseudo. This method too is not as good as KOH, but it is better than the previous experiment using KCl and NaOH in water added to the alky extract. One more experiment to go on this subject. That being water extraction, and dilute sulfuric acid boil as the hydrolysis agent.
		Dragontail (Stranger) 07-30-04 05:55 No 522650				Swim has searched everywhere in his area and...
						Swim has searched everywhere in his area and has only found one source of KOH. Its a 10 minute liquid hair clog remover that cantains Sodium Hypochlorite and Potassium Hydroxide. Any bee know if this would work and in what ratio?
		evilscripter69 (Newbee) 07-30-04 12:52 No 522697				Dont use that
						the other ingredient is also known as bleach. probably fuck up everything, have a wallysworld in your area?
		Dragontail (Stranger) 07-31-04 01:56 No 522819				Wallysworld is here and swim has looked there...
						Wallysworld is here and swim has looked there but still no luck. Did a search on the internet and could'ent identify any soap making supply companies that offered straight KOH. Other sources want a MSDS form filled out. Swim will find it, there is no doubt.
		evilscripter69 (Newbee) 07-31-04 02:39 No 522833				Plumbing aisle. Wallys World
						Drain opener in a yellow bottle, big white one next to it (dont use that one, has bleach in it) read label on the yellow one. Works great SWIM just used it sucessfully on generic 120's 40% return on extraction,reaction was close to 60%  but NO GAKK ! Festers cure works, DONT SKIP THE WATER WASHES ! this is where a lot of crap comes out,
		Dragontail 07-31-04 03:42				Thanks for the tip, swim will check it out. (Rated as: UTF PM Function)
		evilscripter69 (Newbee) 07-31-04 05:16 No 522870				Fester You're the man
						SWIM did a variation of your cure on generic 120'sPost 522865 (evilscripter69: "Success on generic 120's", Stimulants) and it worked, SWIM still needs to find KOH source, currently using a 50/50 mix of Naoh and KOH, it works but is a bitch to evap and keep dry.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 07-31-04 11:35 No 522918				finding KOH
						I did a little search on the MSN engine under soap making. There were a few outlets there that offered KOH. I would imagine that those experimenter chem outlets that advertise in magazines would be OK for this substance too. With luck, water extraction and dilute sulfuric acid boil to hydrolyse will work great and all of this will be simplified a lot.
		2benubee (Stranger) 08-02-04 02:30 No 523161				Isn't KOH battery electrolite ?
						Isn't KOH battery electrolite ?
		warf1 (Stranger) 08-02-04 02:47 No 523162				KOH
						KOH is widely used in tanning hides. SWIP1 found this out by accident whilst web surfing one evening. On one particular site, it was selling for $3.00/lb. Just type in hide tanning or something along those lines and your in business!
		Organikum (Wonderful Personality) 08-03-04 10:27 No 523361				Good filtering method
						Do A/B and filtration in one step! This method is from difficult plant extractions as done at a german university. You have your goodies in a hard to filter acidic aquesous (or alcoholic) solution. Wash this solution with nonpolar of choice. Filter this slowly through sodium carbonate best a thick layer in a Buchner but the coffee filters work to. Slowly! Dont mind if nothing comes through for a long time, stirr on top of the filtercake when you see the shit building up a surface layer. If any water comes through it¨has to be basic to ph paper or you are going too fast. Then pour cupious amounts of non-polar (hot) in the filter and wash out all your now based goodies. If you have gone too fast just repeat with some fresh carbonate added on top and dont forget to wash with more non-polar then. Got it? If its hard to get somebody with better dinglish skills may pls. repwrite this - its a charm so done right. This filters even the stuff left by the "cruel extraction" (patent pending) which consists in plain boiling crushed pills in HCl for some hours. Attention! This gives a mixture of ephedrine/pseudoephedrine and ephedrine is NOT A SOLID as base. But a liquid prone to fly away on heating. Dont try to isolate the bases - only the HCl-salts. (had some european high-gakk pills around and thought I give it a try for fun....) so near, so far......
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-04-04 02:10 No 523508				sulfuric acid hydrolysis (Rated as: Use the Patent Markup Tag!!!)
						Hi Organicum...after an experimenting fool friend of mine did an acid hydrolysis of the pill gak, I see your point. If you are still interested in hydrogenation methods, do check out US Patent 6,399,828. It explains much about what is causing the low octane numbers in hydrogenation, and in particular my methods. The damn sulfate salt doesn't hydrogenate in good yields...the hydrochloride salt does. Rhodium wants me to give links to Patents I mention, but I think you internet surfers get too much for free already, and if you are so lazy that you won't go the the US Patent site to print it out, to hell with you. I know Rhodium's interest is to have a nicely laid out thread with all the info, but combatting laziness and a sense of entitlement is a higher calling. Now to experimental details... This cooking fool once again chose Walmart store brand as his pseudoephedrine starting point. They were ground up, and then extracted with water repeatedly. There was no solvent pre-soak, because the KOH method had shown it could eat up gak without any pre-soak. Then the extract was divided into two halves. To the first half was added 3% by weight sulfuric acid, and it was put on boil. Not a crazy boil, just enough to keep it rolling a bit. With the initial rush of boil, much crap deposited itself on the sides of the flask, and as the boil continued, the initial red orange color changed to Kool Aid Cherry Red. After about half an hour to 45 minutes of boil, during which time the solution boiled down to the point where the sulfuric acid concentration was roughly 5% by weight, the solution was set aside to cool. To the other half, 5% by weight of sulfuric acid was added, and it too was set to boil. This boil was much like the previous one. It boiled down to roughly 7% sulfuric concentration. After half an hour to 45 minutes, it too was Kool Aid cherry red without any orange to be seen in the mix. Both solutions were based with NaOH (lye). The 5% final concentration solution based to an amber beer looking mix with lots of floating crap. The 7% final sulfuric acid concentration based to a dark beer looking mix, with lots of floating crap. Both were extracted with toluene. The toluene layer was for the most part clear, with lots of floating crap. The water layer was drained, and they were both washed with clean water. This left in both cases a clear toluene layer with some kind of emulsion floating in the toluene. It was heavy with both, but more so in the 7% boil. After settling, the toluene layer was separated off from both. It took a while to settle...then the suspended crap in the toluene layers was disposed of by filtering. This took forever, or so it seemed. It might have been faster in the sep funnel and letting it drain there instead. Back into the sep funnel to drain off the water, then into a beaker to let any more water settle for about an hour. Finally, gassing was done on the two runs. The 7% final sulfuric acid concentration run gave maybe 25% yield of what seems to be high quality pseudoephedrine. It may well be mixed with ephedrine, racephedrine... The 5% final sulfuric acid concentration boil gave over 50%, and maybe close to 65% yield of what seems to be high quality product. Of all these methods, the original KOH in alcohol method was easiest to work with, and gave the highest yield of nice product. The last method has the advantage of ease of aquisition, and no smells or fire hazard. Since this is a nano scale method, kitchen fires shouldn't be a problem anyway if you are paying attention.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-04-04 02:48 No 523520				sulfuric quagmire
						My experimenting fool friend was premature to declare the product from this method as being of good quality. It needs recrystallization, and the fool suspects that the yellow oil slips through...or at least something yellow and gooey...after that time in the boiling sulfuric who knows what it is...KOH in alcohol is far superior.
		Organikum (Wonderful Personality) 08-04-04 10:58 No 523600				The HCl boil plain burns the gakk to tarlike...
						The HCl boil plain burns the gakk to tarlike usually unfilterable shit. The sodium carbonate filtration - A/B makes it filterable and removes the rest. At least at the pills tried, I wont do any more research on this it has no worth for me. I just had found this one box..... I recommend the filtration method outlined though. You wont be disappointed. UF, that sulfates are deep shit in hydrogenations is not really new...... What actually surprises me is that it seems you didnt realize that Pd is plain the wrong metal in the electrosynth though.... .....I guess that the man who tried used silver had really better results than all using Pd - and lead would have been the winner (with sulfuric acid as electrolyte, carbon with HCl). Surprise, surprise.... Where is Dwarfer btw.? I have the feeling his microwave chlorination with HCl/Zn should be better explored - I believe he turned more ephedrine to meth in this step than in the following electrolysis. This is more promising than anything else for a quick and dirty one shot-conversion for endusers. DWARFER!! DWAAAAARFER!!!! so near, so far......
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-05-04 22:56 No 523876				Cite reference....
						My house reference book for most reductions is Reductions in Org Chem by Hudlicky, first ed. I consider it a good reference book, and nowhere in there do I find mention that a bit of sulfuric acid in a reduction mix is bad with Palladium. They do of course tell that hydrogenolysis of sulfate esters will go nowhere, but in this case it is a sulfate salt that is in question. The Patent holders were sufficiently grabbed by their results hydrogenating the sulfate salt versus the hydrochloride that they included a section with the yields of the two. I suspect that it is a steric effect with that big sulfate group latched on right next to the alcohol which needs reducing that is the cause of the problem. They do agree that the acetic acid ester is the best way to hydrogenolyse ephedrine to meth, and to make the ester they used acetic anhydride in acetic acid solvent. The method I used was more ghetto...acetic acid plus ephedrine plus some sulfuric acid to get the two to react. If you can find a reference which shows previous knowledge that the sulfate salt of ephedrine, etc, or related compounds won't reduce well, do serve it up. It's news to me, and explains why I got the same low octane, yet buzzable product using palladium fizzing hydrogen at the cathode and Pd black pumped hydrogen with borohydride. The sulfate salt only converts at roughly 10-15% yield...and the rest of the mass is unconverted ephedrine acetic ester and ephedrine.
		p2e3r4f5e6c7t8 (Hive Bee) 08-06-04 14:31 No 524001				KOH thoughts
						Helloo unci fester. Just a question regarding KOH, Swip has only been able to source KOH salutions such as the following KOH 147gms/L       Cant mention the brands because KOH 280gms/L       it would no doubt fuck up swips source & KOH 300gms/L      get swip in trouble with the MODS So would any of these work in the Deconstruction method ? Ask no question's, and i will tell no lies.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-06-04 19:38 No 524029				take the last two...
						My guess would be that they wouldn't introduce enough additional water to the mixture to cause problems. One could always try evaporating them down a bit...
		p2e3r4f5e6c7t8 (Hive Bee) 08-07-04 12:59 No 524045				evap huh
						Do you mean evap the water ? And what % KOH is needed anyway ? Why would the water efect the extraction tek if there is gona bee a little in there anyway ? And what % KOH is needed anyway ? Ask no question's, and i will tell no lies.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-07-04 19:34 No 524114				read the thread!
						I know it is a long one, but all this is covered...too much water screws the yield...you can use anhydrous Iso-Heet and add the amount of KOH solution that gets youu around the 9% water in the azeotropic 91% alcohol, so long as there is enough KOH in that amount of add...it's all really simple because it is a simple method. Those are the best kind...
		p2e3r4f5e6c7t8 (Hive Bee) 08-07-04 21:21 No 524130				eehheemmm
						Sorry unci fester but im an OZbee, and some of what you said in that last post dosent make sense to swip ? What dose azeotropic alchol mean, And how wouls swip know how to make it 9% if the KOH he has is already diluted ? The stronget he has on hand is 300gms/L If swip wanted to try concentrating the KOH could he heat it a little and evap some of the water or would that fuck it. Or is there another way to extract/concentrate the KOH ? Thank's for your patience Unci Ask no question's, and i will tell no lies.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-08-04 18:22 No 524276				careful with that water...
						I'm pretty sure that the addition of too much water to the alcohol will result in layer formation, reduced yields and a poorer product. I may be proven wrong on that point, but I'm fairly sure of it. The azeotropic alcohol is what distills through a fractionating column. That would be 95% for ethyl alcohol and 91% for isopropyl. If one started with anhydrous isopropyl gas line de-icer, used that for extraction, and then added enough of the 300 g/l KOH solution to get 10 grams KOH per hundred pills, then the amount of water in the mix would be close to the optimum. Martha Stewart again today doesn't feel like doing calculations because it is Sunday and my head is all fuzzy from last night's beer. Heating and evaporating down the KOH solution will do it no harm. Be watchful of prolonged exposure to air, as it will suck up CO2 and form potassium carbonate.
		p2e3r4f5e6c7t8 (Hive Bee) 08-09-04 11:21 No 524423				Swip can get 98.9% IPA, Wouldent that be a...
						Swip can get 98.9% IPA, Wouldent that be a little better to use in conjuction with the KOH, Because then swip wouldent have to worry about the H20 content in the IPA because there would be a suffecent amount in the KOH salution(300gms/l) when adding it the the IPA ? Once again thank's for your time and patience unci fester Ask no question's, and i will tell no lies.
		12cheman12 (Hive Bee) 08-09-04 11:50 No 524426				Has ISO shown to have any advantages over...
						Has ISO shown to have any advantages over ethanol? or does anyone know if ethanol would/wouldnt be just as effective? Your an individual just like everyone else
		abominator (Hive Bee) 08-09-04 13:17 No 524429				Iso
						I think Fester used iso because that is what had on hand at the time.  IPA, is quite selective about what it pulls as compared to other alcohols.  So swim would suggest staying with the IPA and follow the rest verbatim, to ensure success.   I'd like to have her right there on floor with the 'ol in/out, real savage.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-09-04 21:21 No 524480				why iso..??
						yes, I picked iospropyl because it was on my kitchen cupboard shelf. It also smells a bit less than denatured alcohol. I did a quick calculation today, and if you add about 35 ml of that 300 g/l KOH solution to get about 10 grams of KOH, you'll also be adding around 20 ml of water...this was just quick off the top of the head without calculating density...etc...that would be a bit short of the 9% water used in the trial runs if 250 to 300 ml of isopropyl was used to pull those 100 pills. It's just much simpler to use pellets. I have no idea how much water in iso would be harmful, but once it forms layers on you, you know you have way too much water.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-10-04 00:42 No 524505				and then figuring density...
						I have no idea what the density of 300 g/l KOH solution is, but 1.5 is a good guess. If one has to add 35 ml of this solution to get 10 grams of KOH, then the 35 ml would weigh around 50 grams, and the remaining 40 grams would be water. That would be a bit much for 300 ml of anhydrous isopropyl, but maybe not so much that layers would form. Somebody I know has to fool around with KOH and alcohol solutions to see at what point layers form with added water.
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 08-16-04 09:01 No 525717				reply
						When using red dots if you remove the red die first most of the filtration problems leaves with the die. The die itself is hell on filters clogging them almost as soon as it comes into contact.. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		12cheman12 (Hive Bee) 08-16-04 13:42 No 525740				So if im correct this method wont work that...
						So if im correct this method wont work that good on pseudo sulfate? Your an individual just like everyone else
		74L (Stranger) 08-17-04 02:22 No 525834				thank you for carring about the little guy Uncel
						I guess swim's a newbee,he useto be multy oz dreamer and was good at going natsi stile,but many things have changed for him sence then.                                                                     Now swi7 is tryn 2 do a nano and dien with all these preblems tryn to extract clean pseudo. so far swi7 is in the hole about 100$ in pseudo and solvents.        But he'll keep reading and keep try'n and Im shure he'll get it. just tryin 2 get back on track.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 08-17-04 23:54 No 525971				pseudo sulfate
						Is pseudo sulfate difficult to get dissolved in alcohol? If so, a bit of HCl in the extraction alcohol might help....otherwise I can see no reason why pseudo sulfate pills wouldn't behave in a similar way...
		Urban_XTC (Stranger) 09-05-04 10:25 No 529668				chloroform
						meth-hcl is soluble 1:5 in chloroform, does pseudo have thet same property, if so what about the new gakks, just a thought HEDONISM....THE RELENTLESS PERSUIT OF PLEASURE
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-06-04 23:56 No 530008				ephedrine pill extraction
						This one takes me back to wher I started on this subject a year ago in the Pill Fuckers at it Again thread. Gas station ephedrine pills were ground up in a blender with no solvent pre-soak. They were then extracted with portions of 91% isopropyl alcohol. This pill formulation turned out to be a filter clogging type, so after soaking and swirling, it was allowed to settle and the soak was decanted. Then several more alcohol soaks were done over a period of several hours. This resulted in a milky looking solution that was allowed to settle overnight.    The almost clear alcohol extract was poured off the settled debris, and put into a beaker. It was put on the stove at med heat and set to boiling. As it got warm, roughly 12 grams KOH per 100 of the 25 mg ephedrine plus 200 mg guifenesin pills was added. As it got boiling, the initially kind of clear solution turned a pale yellow, then a yellow oil layer formed at the bottom of the beaker. There was a fairly large amount of the oil compared to a similar number of sudafed pills. Boiling was continued for 25 minutes. When the beaker had cooled down, the liquid was poured into a sep funnel. The oil layer was drained off, and the alcohol put back into a beaker. It was slowly evaporated down. The alcohol was of a kind of cloudy appearance. When the alcohol was almost all gone, roughly 70 ml of water was added to the beaker for each 100 pills used. It was swirled around to dissolve the stuff at the bottom of the beaker, and poured into a sep funnel. Then about 50 ml of naptha (actual solvent used:hexane)was put into the beaker to clean up some more. This wash was put into the sep funnel as well. The sep funnel was shaken, and after a bit of time to let the layers settle, the water was drained off. This was followed by another water wash, which too was drained away. Finally, the naptha(hexane) layer was poured into a beaker, allowed to sit for a couple hours to shed water, then poured into another beaker and gassed with dry HCl. Yield roughly 70% of what seems to be nice ephedrine HCl. Perhaps it is time to start with recrystallization experiments.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 09-07-04 00:27 No 530013				Relavency???
						UncleFester: I'm not sure of the relevency here or if this might help but IPA is used to make eudragit and while the KOH is proven to deal with that part, my thought is that if another alky was used as the extractant, the KOH part wouldn't bee overburdened as much. If you get my drift. I could be wrong about that but it's just a hunch. Maybe Denat or methanol might improve yields and reduce that milkiness. RXa-soar-ass Vvvrrrooom!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-08-04 00:12 No 530220				Consistency??
						Those gas station pills were the ones which a year ago got me interested in these new pill formulations. They were the WORST ever seen. If the KOH method should fail on them, one wouldn't want to be wondering if it was because of a switch to different alcohol type. I have no idea if 95%EtOH is as good or better than 91% iso. That would make an interesting line of experimentation.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 09-08-04 00:36 No 530225				Refinement....
						Ibee is my name Refinement is my game If it can be made better... We'll see to it! The KOH method is a valid reliable method so there should be little doubt about which side blindsided which in a drunken stupor over tech-killa brands. Thanx Uncle! RXa-soar-ass Vvvrrrooom!
		74L (Stranger) 09-08-04 01:10 No 530234				beautifuly done fester
						swims BEEn waiting pationtly 2 c the the results from these efed pills as swim would like 2 bee dreamn with'm.   still have yet 2 secure KOH .    so bee's been play'n with EvlScrip's tetra/spd & cant help but wonder ? Evl if you got KOH why is tetra /spd ur wash of choise ?  Just ask'N.   Dam ILOVE this site
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-09-04 20:49 No 530524				ephedrine pill residue
						74, just to let you know, the residue after evaporating away the iso after the KOH boil amounts to almost one half ml per pill put into the mix. It is a jelly at room temp, but it mixes with warm water. Just a small detail I left out of the process writeup. Those 200 mg guifenesin pills are a cesspool of slop.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-10-04 01:19 No 530569				more on slop residue
						They really go heavy with the detergents on this formulation, but following this procedure they will be down the drain where they belong. The other wierd stuff in this formula either gets cleaved, or doesn't show its stuff. It's kind of funny how easy they are when done right.
		pillboy37 (Stranger) 09-10-04 04:18 No 530585				source for KOH
						Anybee having trouble finding KOH just go to the search engine beaucoup.com and put in Potassium Hydroxide. It will pull up all you need.  Just to BEE safe though, it should be sent to a safehouse.
		barkingburro (Hive Bee) 09-11-04 08:31 No 530823				some interesting htoughts on IPA's
						91% seem to have glycerin or something to that affect, it leaves a film of sorts on things, 99% seems to as well but not as noticeably. the red hot ISO bottles of gas line water remover from swibbs experience has some sort of metal, or or other heavy compound that has a bluish tint after evaping. anyone else notice anything of the sort? swibb's recently been using a slightly more expensive 99.9% anyhdrous IPA from a fry shop for computers. swibb's noticed it has a far less noticeable smell as well. anyway.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 09-11-04 17:32 No 530876				According to the LIT!
						Ethanol has superior qualities in comparison to the common alky's for bee's purposes as they relate to popular pass-times around here. But that's according to the Lit from some pretty reliable authoritive documents. Some try to sideline the facts with discussion of preferences, and to them I say "Whatever floats yer boat, SWIM!" Whatever the preference, you can't change scientific fact or molecular affinity! I've always had a strong affinity to things with strong affinities for the things I have an affinity to! For those that have an affinity for IPA in extractions that are riddled with eudragit, I can only suggest a side by side trial experiment (double-blind for those with an affinity toward getting soused) One with IPA, the other with ethanol(grain alky in most states). And for those with unswayable preferences, Let your aquired taste decide for itself which one works best. For me....The Proof is in my Pudding! I recall seeing a post by the chief Rhodium stating that his locale presented aquistion difficulties for the purer ethanols. And Dwarfer stated marvin can't find grain alky on the left coast. Is that the case in most states due to ABC and ATF restrictions. I do recall a burst of Campus Related Hazing incidents resulting in alky related deaths some time back that would explain tighter restrictions but not an all out abolishment of EverClear(grain). You Laugh at me because I'm different I laugh at you because you look the same
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-15-04 01:34 No 531355				hardware store denatured alcohol
						The Merck Index lists a series of formulations for the denatured ethyl alcohol found in the paint section of hardware stores. All the formulations start with 95% EtOH, and then to that various additives are mixed in to make it undrinkable. It is a lot smellier than 190 proof vodka or 91% iso-OH, but should be functional for the purpose.
		ChemoSabe (Hive Addict) 09-15-04 04:50 No 531389				The Nature of Denatured Alkie
						Do the additives put into denatured ethanol have an effect on it's particular 'affinity' to do what bees need to with it? And could the ethanol within bee purified by simple distillation? (Question almost but not quite unrelated to this forum.) What would it take to get the denatured into a "drinkable" form? he's either got a lightbulb up his ass or his colon has a brilliant idea
		wtpadgett1978 (Stranger) 09-15-04 05:48 No 531397				KOH Evap
						swim found KOH in drain cleaner, no other chemicals listed but has bleach smell. evapped down to pretty white crystals, will this work if dry and bleach smell is gone?
		Ascension (Stranger) 09-15-04 06:03 No 531399				If denat could be purifed by simple ...
						If denat could be purified by simple distillation then it wouldnt be a very effective denat would it. People would just distill it then drink. The denats have practically the same BP as the ethanol making it impossible to purify this way, infact its almost impossible to purify denat alcohol anyway from what i know. Your an individual just like everyone else.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-17-04 23:21 No 531860				Ephedrine error
						I wrongfully posted that the results from straight iso-OH followed by KOH boil of gas station 200 mg guifenesin/25 mg ephedrine was suitable for further use. It is suitable for shit. These pills need a pre-soak to clear the inactives. I will report back later on details.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-18-04 01:07 No 531884				Before...
						the superficial commentaries come in, consider that I have been extracting these ephedrine pills for about 15 years throughout their various transformations. I'm not a newbee. When the 100 mg. guifenesin pills came out, one could extract by first soaking in toluene. When the 200 mg. guifenesin pills came out, a toluene pre-soak, then base with NaOH in akly, then extract with naptha worked just fine. The last couple of years that one worked poorer and poorer as more shit went into the pills....ephedrine pills have always lead on formulations to market. Now this failure on the KOH method. It may well be that the 200mg and associated shit just has to have a pre-soak. The alternative is that this is a new breed of pills. Time will tell.
		BOS (Hive Bee) 09-20-04 10:27 No 532308				About these methacrylic polymers,is there...
						About these methacrylic polymers,is there solubility not dependant on ph? Like,dont they become insoluble at around ph5? Why not extract with alcohol,filter,acidify alcohol pull @ph5,wait,filter and then carry on with what ever extraction steps you feel are still needed. Sorry if this has been mentioned. Some reading for you Warehttp://www.pharmcast.com/PatentToSubWeb/Classification/Classification500.htm#Microencapsulation like you havent read it all already.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-25-04 21:13 No 533163				polymer cocktail
						Let's just ignore the difficulty in judging the pH of an alcohol solution, especially at a near neutral pH like 5, and suppose that one of the polymers in the pill mix, eudragit, has a solubility minimum at pH 5. There are still al the other polymer additives, and they are chosen so that they will make no end of problems. Things like polyethylene glycol(PEG), that yet inidentified filter plugging material, and on and on. All the new additives are polymers. By breaking them first, one has a much clearer field...one the people who thought up the additives hadn't covered. You may not end up with a pristine product just by alky extraction and KOH boil, but it at least gets you to a product that works. The product then can also be freed of residual crap by recrystallization. pH tweeking of the extracts has been tried, but other additves get through. It's best to clear the field, then work.
		metalgirl (Stranger) 09-25-04 22:36 No 533173				here's a miseable tale just to add to the...
						here's a miseable tale just to add to the colourfullness of this thread....tried a caustic alky reflux on about half a cup of ground pills and ended up with about three cups of black shit that had the ability to soak up endless amounts of toluene...a whole litre of tolly was exhausted...the tiny amount that could be poured off was evaped to reveal half a teaspoon of brown crud from a potential of five grams sudo....misery ensued and some ephedra was purchased....
		tina_craig (Stranger) 09-26-04 03:42 No 533208				No problems
						Every KOH boil swim has performed has left him happy with at least 50% of initial gear. Getting a 10mg ready. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-26-04 21:38 No 533292				caustic alky
						would caustic be NaOH? That is the usual terminology...
		metalgirl (Newbee) 09-26-04 23:44 No 533313				doh
						yes, naoh...i guess i was avoiding the whole koh vs naoh subject since it was recomended not to use naoh...i thought it wouldn't matter too much since it works wonders on an ephedra extract but something tells me your going to tell me different....i did reflux it for an hour....what do you reckon?
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 09-27-04 04:05 No 533338				yes, it matters
						Yes, it matters. KOH and NaOH have important differences here-- KOH is more readily soluble in alcohol than NaOH. You want that water in the alcohol...you cannot succeed without it. mostly harmless
		Ascension (Hive Bee) 09-27-04 04:16 No 533342				NaOH is also know as caustic soda and sodium...
						NaOH is also know as caustic soda and sodium carbonate is soda ash, not to sure what potassium hydroxide is referred to as but. Your an individual just like everyone else.
		nuke (Stranger) 09-27-04 05:04 No 533348				Denatured Alcohol
						(Waste of time) Edit:  Depending on where you live, you might be able to distill it or not...  If you're in the EU: Post 511332 (methyl_ethyl: "EU Ethanol Denaturation", Stimulants)
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 09-27-04 13:17 No 533381				reply
						potassium hydroxide is referred to as pot ash I believe.  Metalgirl, What happened to the alcohol? did you separate it from the mess in the bottom of the beaker before evaping it? Brown stuff sounds burnt to me...  Separating the alcohol and evaping will yield at least 50% in a freebase form if KOH was employed. A DH2O wash of the freebase and titrating back to an HCl should be clean enough for use. You could add toluene and gas if you don't like titrating.. Swim says use the freebase anyway. It makes things simple.. Toluene can be added to the snot left in the beaker to pull for higher yield. process this separately.. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		tina_craig (Stranger) 09-27-04 14:35 No 533387				This may have been stupid....
						315 24 x 30's boiled in 450mL 91% ISO IPA 15 grams KOH added at boiling point, boiled 30 minutes.  Top layer decanted off of oily layer on bottom and evapped to near dry, flashed with tone (stupid part?) and filtered.  Covered with 100 mL tolly washed twice with dh20, separated and gassed tolly, became cloudy and white material settled on bottom but material passed through filters.  Entrained water assumed.  Evapping tolly extracts and will cover with tolly again and allow to sit to drain entrained water and regas. Does this sound right? Tina Craig worked for me!!
		metalgirl (Newbee) 09-27-04 17:58 No 533410				Idiocy is afoot!
						Damn I've had a bad few days...two posts rated as misinforming for reasons which are quite obvious and now this....I'm afraid I've really led us up the garden path, through the fields and over the mountains here....        I did this proccedure many months ago and whilst posting about it my recall of the event was shocking....In fact I had allready worked out what was most likely the problem...this is embarrasing...you see, the great god of slackness had guided me that day to not worry about ridding the pills of paracetamol just to see what would happen....well it all swelled up and went pitch black so I guess that's what happens...though, interestingly the proccedure was performed on an alky pull, not the raw pill mass which makes the amount of black shit I got quite remarkable....oh, and Jacked; it was refluxed in an oil bath at 100 C so it wasn't burnt by heating..      Also, though I have a strong inclination toward believing you guys about koh vs naoh (since I know squat) I can't help but wonder how important the difference is since the naoh/meoh has proven to be very effective on an ephedra extract.....no emulsions in work up..I guess this is very different to pills so the difference may be vital in pill hacking...        Uncle Fester, what's this about water?...I've been away from the hive for months and months...better read the whole thread....god! these must be the most useless posts I've ever made..
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 09-28-04 11:11 No 533543				water in the alky
						This subject was covered in detail in the thread along with experimental, you'll find it with some looking. Also, the old term for KOH is caustic potash.
		metalgirl (Newbee) 09-28-04 22:04 No 533644				spotted this
						Just out of interest, i've just been reading about biodeisel....which is made by reacting vegetable oil with koh or naoh in methanol. The article i read says naoh+methanol= sodium methoxide. Here's a bit of the article.....(this may all be irrelivant so i don't mind if you down rate this)                            "TRANSESTERIFICATION" In transesterification, lye and methanol are mixed to create sodium methoxide (Na+ CH3O-). When mixed in with the WVO this strong polar-bonded chemical breaks the transfatty acid into glycerine and also ester chains (biodiesel), along with some soap if you're not careful (more on that later). The esters become methyl esters. They would be ethyl esters if reacted with booze (ethanol) instead of methanol. oh yeah, here's a definition of caustic: Capable of burning, corroding, dissolving, or eating away by chemical action. Corrosive and bitingly trenchant; cutting. See Synonyms at sarcastic. Causing a burning or stinging sensation, as from intense emotion: “Most of all, there is caustic shame for my own stupidity” (Scott Turow). n. A caustic material or substance. A hydroxide of a light metal. The enveloping surface formed by light rays reflecting or refracting from a curved surface, especially one with spherical aberration.
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-04-04 01:12 No 534331				KOH boil ?
						swit_c just finished another KOH boil, 3.60 grams available.  175ml 91% ISO IPA used to extract, then right at boiling 5 grams of KOH chips were added and boiled 30 minutes.  At 20 minutes of boiling 1 more gram of KOH chips were added.  This was then allowed to cool and the bottom layer which was just as swiuf described it except a little more yellow was separated off through a sep. funnel.  ISOIPA was then evaporated to give a large amount of crystalline pseudo.  To this 20ml dh2o added then, this was poured into sep. funnel then 75ml of toluene was added to evap. dish and used to get up all the xstals and moved to sep. funnel. Then 1/2 of total volume of tolly was added in dh2o 3 times.  Now the tolly is sitting to drain entrained water.  Question is should the tolly look like milk right now?  Is this a shitload of entrained water or is something wrong? Tina Craig worked for me!!
		Scottydog (Hive Addict) 10-04-04 05:28 No 534355				Dry the NP
						Swim doesn't trust this "let the NP sit shit" to remove entrained water. SetUP a funnel in a mason jar. Add a piece of cotton ball to plug the funnel and dump in about 60 grams of dry MgSO4 into the funnel. Then pour your NP layer through the epsoms and cotton. Once it is done dripping into the mason jar, then you can GO ahead and gas it! Not drying your NP will rob you of precious precursor. I know Fester recommends the sit and wait in his writeUP but Swim would advise against it. It will work occasionally but once you've suffered the mystery of the disappearing pseudo, just one time, its enough to make you want to do things correctly and not take shortcuts. If the milky consistency is something other then moisture, the filtering may go a long way in dealing with some of this. Refuse/Resist
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-04-04 16:46 No 534398				kewl, thx sd, and by dry you mean baked in...
						kewl, thx sd, and by dry you mean baked in oven at 400 degrees for 1 hour? Tina Craig worked for me!!
		abominator (Hive Bee) 10-04-04 20:10 No 534415				That's what he means, to bake the epsom salts...
						That's what he means, to bake the epsom salts til dry. Don't worry it's just stigmata pass me a napkin ... and don't you dare tell my mother
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-05-04 00:54 No 534461				These pills suck! Tolly sat all day and ...
						These pills suck! Tolly sat all day and cleared, gassed and white formed but falls right through filters.  Evapping all tolly now.  Had the same problem when used these before and got triple gaaked in rxn.  These were left overs and swim will NOT be pursuing this mix again.  Don't even know if evaps will be safe to use. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-05-04 10:48 No 534525				milky toluene
						What was the ID of these pills? It's an important bit of info so that new formulations can be tracked. I think you were a bit on the light side with the use of KOH, also, the wash with water of the toluene extract was skipped. Much shit comes out on that wash. Once most shit has been removed, the toluene will generally shed any water upon sitting a couple hours and be fit for gassing once transferred to a clean beaker.
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-05-04 16:23 No 534557				Uncle: These were the inactives: Ammonium...
						Uncle: These were the inactives: Ammonium Hydroxide, carnauba wax, croscarmellose sodium, dibutyl sebacate, thylcellulose, FD&C red #40 Al. Lake, FD&C yellow #6 Al. Lake, fumed silica, hypremellose, lactose, microcrystalline cellulose, oleic acid, polyethylene glycol, povidone, pregelatinized starch, silicon dioxide, stearic acid, sucrose, talc, and titanium oxide. $1 24 x 30 Tolly was washed 3x with 1/2 volumes of dh20. This is second try at this particular super generic brand.  Same story last time. Tolly was evapped to give back 2g out of 3.6 possible of soft, flaky, slightly sparkly FB pseudo. These were so generic it actually stated on the box that they were not produced by the same manufacturers of Sudafed.  Don't want to names sources though.  Will publish as much info off of box as possible when swim gets home tonight. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-06-04 00:55 No 534605				More on the monster pseudos: What info is...
						More on the monster pseudos: What info is swiuf looking for, a lot #? swim doesn't want to list anything that shouldn't be listed. Pharmacist's Signature Lot#: ZS4E078 H Pharmaceutical Formulations, Inc. Swim hopes this isn't too much info or considered naming sources, just wanted to make sure swiuf got all the info needed.  If too much was listed pls let swit_c know what can be posted from this list and future posts will be less listed. BTW, washed tolly evaps 2 grams original with tone to give 1.5 grams of pseudo.  Dissolved in methanol and in process of rxtalizing.  More later. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-06-04 02:47 No 534616				6 gr KOH?
						I missed the repeated water washes in your procedure. In any case, 6 or 7 gr of KOH was enough for the Walgreens generics which were closely in accord with the original patent. When moving on to the brand names and Wally Worlds store brand, the KOH had to go up to 10 gr per 100 30 mg pill. If the toluene extract is cloudy after water washing, and won't settle out...that is uncleaved polymer dragged through. Up the KOH level, and let us know what happens. You may also have to filter the toluene extract, but in my experience that was only needed when using makeshift KOH from NaOH and KCl. Boost it up, and let us know.
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-06-04 03:29 No 534628				Tolly did finally clear and was gassed to no...
						Tolly did finally clear and was gassed to no avail.  Evapped the tolly extracts for the FB.  Washed with acetone, dissolved in methanol and is slowly recrystallizing with the nice cool night.  Swim has 3 or 4 more boxes of these and will up the KOH to ratios given.  Any other tips or pointers swiuf? Tina Craig worked for me!!
		wareami (Hive Addict) 10-06-04 15:29 No 534681				Just some thoughts!
						Uncle Fester: This condition being described with filtration problems and milkiness is reminiscent of hydropropylmethylcellullose and MCC in combo that comprise the DryMatrixFormulation(DMF). That DMF still runs rampant in most all the pills described in this thread and in most reports lately that list inactives... Unc_F, Being the gaak thwarter and inventor of this technique that sidesteps eudragit, also recently discovered and shared the unique mindset of getting the gaak out of the way first then dealing with the goodz for further purification. I wouldn't put forth this recomendation if it could feasibly interfere with method or instigate extraction problems. So with that U_F...Ibee wants to suggest to you first a method that may help sidestep the problems others are reporting. A pre-extract Tetrachloroethylene wash might work wonders on the pillmass at removing some of the nasties that are forcing higher KOH amounts to be used in order to skirt by all the cleavage in that beautypageant Just a suggestion and a thought...nothing more! If it helps...it helps... I strongly doubt it could hurt. Happy extracting! If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-06-04 21:56 No 534738				pill ID
						Not knowing the pills ID has slowed up my reply, however, if they are the Wally World pills, or brand name, when enough KOH is in the mix, it makes a milky solution upon hydrolysis, and the milkiness consists of white flakes. They settle out over a few hours, and workup proceeds as usual. This variety takes a larger load of KOH. I can't understand the squeemishness about mentioning pill brands. No mention of sources is meant to prevent some innocent supplier of useful chems from having his life turned into a living hell. It's not meant to prevent ID of an OTC product sold by the millions. I barely have time to get my dishes done, so directness is invaluable for me. I doubt it is a dry matrix formulation. More likely that gak exhausted the KOH...I could be proven wrong...
		wareami (Hive Addict) 10-06-04 22:56 No 534750				Specifics...
						On sourcing and specifics, I won't go into the thick of it. And I agree that it wouldn't hurt the source much nor would it likely have an effect on what they are doing with newer formulations. I do feel that one's livelyhood and liberty could be placed in jeopardy if they include so much information that is undeniable in the court of law that this is no longer a hypothetical theory based discussion. Lot#'s...exp dates...NIC numbers...all that info adds up. Description, smells, etc... of certain gaaks might even narrow down ones illicit activity. Even if it were allowed and the Hive could never be held accountable today...doesn't mean that won't change tomorrow. There is a fine line being walked as it is in regards to the sites disclaimer and the freedom we are given to speak our minds. I wopuld rather side with caution to insure the site's longevity and safety if in fact anything was ever challenged here. That's just my opinion. There is a distinct odor of eudragit and our friend chemosabe brought this up while not being able to put a finger on it. I'm happy for that...for him/her/it that shy away from such identifying info. While I know for for a fact the name of that aroma...I'll not disclose that in writing. I'm looking at it like this. They know who Ibee is...they know ibee's name... They can only guess what Ibee's doing based on what he tells them he['s doing...and he's so full of crypticBS you'd have to bee a fool to take his word for anything! So to tie UP the loose ends for them....Well Fuck that! Ibee'll leave the burden of proof on them! If that's too graphic, paranoid, farfetched and nobody likes it....well... Welcome to the internet SWIM! If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
		localbuilder (Stranger) 10-06-04 22:59 No 534751				KOH Raised?
						Uncle, If not enough koh is being used in many cases.  Is there worse affects by useing to much koh if that's possible?  Second, could a reflux over 30 min. assure a better finish?
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-07-04 01:12 No 534766				KOH amount
						In the example recipe given in my old org chem textbook..Intro to Org Chem by Streitwieser..they used almost twice as much KOH in their hydrolysis as in my original expt. with the Walgreens pills. Since those pills are long ago part of the sewer system, I feel no fear of heading up the river over them. Fooling with sudafed pills to determine their makeup is no crime. There may well be a "too much" point for KOH, but this level isn't there yet.
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-07-04 01:13 No 534767				Swim is a little unsure of exactly where the...
						Swim is a little unsure of exactly where the pill ID is located.  There are 2 bar codes with differing #'s, one on the outside of the box and one if you open the end on the inner flap.  When these were boiled they did go from pinkish red to orange to milky white.  Swim inadvertently overlooked a step in swiuf method, the step of letting the freshly boiled IPA settle until clear.  Swim had 4 more boxes left and decided to start this time with a 24 hour xylene soak.  swim will continue with the rest tomorrow.  Something odd, swim took the last extract and washed with tone, then dissolved in methanol and chilled in frig and then moved to freezer, noticed some gritty stuff in bottom of beaker so let it return to room temp to filter.  What swim thinks is the pseudo just became a milky cloud suspended in the methanol after cooling and after it returned to room temp the cloud remained, also it would float from bottom to top at different temps.  Shouldn't the pseudo have redissolved?  Solid xtals never seemed to have formed.  Is this gear or uncleaved polymer?  Methanol is clear other than white cloud which stays together to some extent and when shaken reforms after 30-60 minutes. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-07-04 10:57 No 534809				pill ID
						Just the brand will fine for identification. A presoak in solvent shouldn't be needed if enough KOH is in the brew, and do let the flakes settle out. It's a simple and effective way of removing a load of crap from the mixture.
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-07-04 13:55 No 534822				Another thing, swim was reading through all...
						Another thing, swim was reading through all the pill xtrction techs on Rhodium's site and read a few places that letting the PM sit in the ISO IPA too long will allow it to start absorbing polymers.  Does this apply here or does it matter or is swim misunderstanding what was written.  It was in the STE and STB techs.  Only did xylene soak for 2 hours drained and dried and is sitting in 200mL 91% ISO IPA now, figured it sitting overnight in ISO certainly couldn't hurt anything.  KOH is pure from chem supply and will boil these last 4 boxes down this evening.  So 96 pills + 10 grams KOH?  Would it hurt to use 12 grams?  Another question, on future xtractions, swim is going to pursue some white 60's because swim had very good luck with these using ISO and evaporated drain cleaner, could swim use methanol instead of ISOIPA?  The KOH as understood is soluble in alcohol.  And one last question, would it be easier and more efficient to only do extractions in 100 pill segments or is it worthwhile to do 400 or 500 at one time? Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-08-04 00:17 No 534876				Ican tell who..
						hasn't bothered to read through the thread before doing experimental. Did it save you time? No, it wasted pills, effort, danger and money. The Chemical God is pleased that it also didn't cause polluting solvents to be spewed in a wasted effort. Read the thread and follow directions. Then your problems will be solved. If you would like a shorter summary of the thread, SOMM 7 is out in a few months. If you would like to invent your own method, feel free, but I think the experimental on this one was done well. I only get cranky when it is obvious that the experimenter hasn't read the text.
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-08-04 12:52 No 534952				Thread was read...
						Swim read entire thread it is just so long it is hard to retain it all, it took swim 4 hours to read entire thread if that tells anything.  Sorry if the questions seemed whatever.  swim remembers reading something about methanol in thread and will just search it out.  Nevermind. Was going of a publishing emergency, but read ALL OTHER experiments. Sorry to bother. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 10-08-04 13:46 No 534957				reply
						Relax, one day you will understand his frustrations and if not it is a small thing compared.. Methanol? The key to this whole KOH method is "hydro" Water in short. 91% IPA contains 9% water which has a key roll in this method. A substitute will create more problems that will only generate more questions and lead the technique into a totally different extraction method, in turn this will even confuse things more turning a gift thread into a hard to follow mess of try this or try that with no confirmation on anything. Miss one post and you got to start over. Your 4 hours turns into 6... Sometimes a break from everything is in order to reflect on what you have read and after a few days relaxing it will hit you like a ton of bricks... Trust me on that.. Relax. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-08-04 16:17 No 534963				Thanks Jacked, wasn't trying to be shitty with
						Thanks Jacked, wasn't trying to be shitty with anyone, just got frustrated which swim is sure is a regular occurence round here.  Will stick to do it by the book technique.  Sorry uf. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-09-04 14:16 No 535038				reading list
						There are three experimentals which are required reading. The original exp headed Publishing Emergency using Walgreens generics, the later one using brand name red hots,and the following one using Walmart generics. Walgreens generics are formulated exactly according to the Patent, and hydrolyse nicely using maybe 7 gr KOH per 100. The brand name pills are a more advanced formulation which plugs filters, and produces a milky suspension when hydrolysed. This formulation benefits from using around 10 gr KOH per 100. Then with the Walmart generics, it was found that they are virtually identical to the brand name formulation. One can assume that many off brand generics will also be formulated in a similar manner. It was also found in later experiments that solvent presoak isn't required except in the case of 25 mg ephedrine and 200 mg guifenesin pills. A soak in toluene to remove guifenesin is required with them. One could expect similar results with sudo pills containing tylenol.
		tina_craig (Newbee) 10-12-04 01:41 No 535440				Workin' it again.
						4 boxes of 24 x 30 pills super loaded with inactives were first put into a "beaker" and covered with acetone until about 1/2" of tone stood over pills.  Then dh20 was added 4-5 drops at a time and then swirled.  This was repeated in these increments until red began to losen and was finally removed to a slight orange tint.  Pills then filtered and allowed to dry overnight.  Then crushed to a fine powder in a "mortar and pestle" and covered with 200ml of 91% ISO IPA and allowed to sit 24 hours.  Then filtered and put over heat, as small bubbles began to move quickly from bottom to top of alky, 12 grams of KOH chips were added in 4 gram increments over about 15 minutes.  Then solution was boiled 30 minutes.  Color changed from red-orange to melon to milky white with coffee colored layer on bottom.  This has been allowed to sit 24 hours to settle and is awaiting evaporation due to lack of time.  Will post further results as they are obtained.  As of now, solution is almost clear with the coffee layer and now a white layer on top of the coffee.  Will sit at least another 24 hours before evaporating.  Looking very good so far though. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		rangahtank (Stranger) 10-15-04 07:47 No 535923				Gassing longer
						Recently, while trying this method, SWIR couldn't seem to get the goodies out of the toluene.  After much head scratching and pondering, he simply 'overgassed' the tolly.  The extended gassing seemed to precipitate the pfed HCl with few gaks following. SWIR still likes to rextallize twice anyway before reacting, and has noticed few problems with this overgassing.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-15-04 11:03 No 535951				wasted 'tone
						No need for any solvent presoak except with the 200 mg guifenesin pills with 25 mg ephedrine. Decant off the clear alcohol from the settled flakes and coffee layer, and just proceed with the workup.
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 10-15-04 14:05 No 535968				Last night, swit_c brought ISOIPA that was...
						Last night, swit_c brought ISOIPA that was holding pseudo after KOH boil from most recent post with the pretty colors to another boil and boiled down to 1/4" of fluid left in beaker.  Lots of sparkly xtals.  Added 20ml of dh20 once completely dry and swirled, added to sep. funnel, added 25ml tolly to beaker, swirled, added to funnel, added 50ml more to beaker swirled added to funnel.  Washed with dh20 3 times.  Drained tolly into clean beaker and let sit overnight to drain entrained water, noticed tolly was perfectly clear this morning.  Water washes remained cloudy. What water couldn't get drained in sep funnel was left with a very small amount of tolly on top.  Gassed this and put in evap dish to find nice crystalline, film this morning that looked kind of like how ice freezes to windows in the winter.  Will gas tolly tonight as was on way to work. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-16-04 12:14 No 536073				careful with that heating! (Rated as: good idea!)
						As the alcohol nears being completely evaporated away, one must be careful with the heating on the evaporation. If you heat to dryness, you may well burn the pseudo extract and end up with nothing. Hot water and a fan blowing over the top of the beaker may be the best choice for rapid evaporation of that last bit.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-16-04 21:07 No 536113				more stuff
						As to the KOH usage, on my first run I tossed in maybe 7 gr per 100 pills and boiled for 15 minutes. To see if there was more to get, I let the layer fall to the bottom and decanted the alcohol. The alcohol went back to the beaker, and I added another gram or so of KOh and boiled for another 10 min. I got a little bit more layer at the bottom. If that was from not allowing enough time for the layer to fall out all the way and settle, or if it was from more gak being whacked, I'm not sure. The brand name pills and most generic knock offs which plug filters certainly benefit from going up to 10 gr per 100 pills. Beyond that, as to increasing time or more KOH, one could repeat my original line of thought by just separating off the precipitated crap and boil more or add some more KOH and see if more crap falls out. I think 10 gr is enough for the pills now out, but do give it a try if you want.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-16-04 21:12 No 536114				the gassing...
						if I read your posting correctly, all you have is an ice film of psuedo? It should be a snowstorm which requires filtering and drying. Do give more details....
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-16-04 23:30 No 536127				my personal punching bag
						My kids are too nice to whack, but if I did my son would put up a battle. Your posts on this page allow me to be a whacking bastard. The pills require no solvent presoak, but if a presoak should be done, it better be np. Instead you modify the procedure and use acetone and water presoak. Both dissolve product, and both could be used as recrystallization solvent. What buzzing was in your ears after reading the experimentals in the rest of this thread that caused you to do this?? If you have an itch to presoak, use toluene, xylene or naptha. Then after letting the entrained water in the extract settle, pour into a clean and dry beaker to gas, while leaving the water droplets behind. Don't act like a violated or otherwise misused victim when reading this post because you said previously that you were going to follow the procedure, but continue to invent amateurishly along the way.
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 10-17-04 07:40 No 536159				the tone and water was only used because swim...
						the tone and water was only used because swim was told to at least remove some of the red.  The ice film swim spoke of was from the tiny bit of water and tolly that swim couldn't separate do to ghetto sep.funnel, so swim figured what the hell and evapped that little bit while waiting to gass tolly.  When finally gassed it gassed beautifully, returned about 2 grams.  Swim reacted this with 6g I and 4g MBRP (excessive swim knows but got tired of disappointments) and 1ml dh20 inside about a 400-500ml ghetto flask with 4' of braided pvc hose and a punch balloon on the end.  Cooked for 3.5 hours did a standard workup and returned about 1.25 to 1.5 grams of kickass sheite!!  Prepping a 7 grammer with UF's technique on some generic waly's world 60's.  So far so good........and high, woohoo! Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-17-04 22:10 No 536239				citing referenes...
						...for acetone as recrystallization solvent for ephedrine and sudo. There is the Emde article from Chem Abstracts from the '20's that everyone should be familiar with, also Chem Abstracts Vol. 47, col. 3347. Cold acetone can be used as a quick wash, but not a presoak as that uses large volumes of solvent. The stuff dissolves the goods and should be used appropriately. Quit worrying about the color of the coat of the pills, it's what is inside that screws you.
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 10-18-04 14:18 No 536359				White 60's
						6 boxes of 24 x 60 Wally's world generics listing 3 inactives.  Crushed to fine powder, extracted 3 times with 150ml 91% ISO IPA.  Each 150ml portion brought to a boil separately and added 10g KOH each at time of boiling.  Boiled 30 minutes each.  Allowed these to sit for 30 minutes each to settle, then decanted and combined extracts in evap dish and evapped to near dry.  Scraped xtals from dish and added 30ml dh20 put this in sep funnel, added 75ml of tolly to dish 3 times and added to funnel.  Washed with dh20 3 times with volumes equal to 1/2 volume of tolly.  Poured into clean beaker, allowed to sit 30 minutes to drain entrained water and gassed to recover 6g out of 8.64g total available of very high quality pseudo.  Reacted this and all went like a dream. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		Xaja (Hive Bee) 10-19-04 22:37 No 536692				Hey Fester
						Whats your view on hydrolysing by acid reflux? We know it won't destroy the E but will racemize it (ref = The Alkaloids, Manske etc). Wonder if acid reflux (~10% HCl) will hydrolyse polymers also? ***FriedPiper*** Reality is just a crutch for people who can't handle drugs...
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-20-04 11:04 No 536774				acid hydrolysis experimentals
						They're in the thread a few pages back.
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 10-21-04 20:10 No 536998				color
						UF try taking some of the red off first (WW red dots)(dull finnish) and see how much faster it filters. Its like night and day compared. I would recommend that one step before doing an extraction requiring a filtration.. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		abominator (Hive Bee) 10-21-04 20:53 No 537013				This bee tried Jacked's advice on da red one's
						This bee tried Jacked's advice on da red one's and by god he is right again!  De-redding works wonders for the filtration.  With no notice of lost pseudoephedrine. Here is a link for the sulfuric acid hydrolysis and an excerpt: The 7% final sulfuric acid concentration run gave maybe 25% yield of what seems to be high quality pseudoephedrine. It may well be mixed with ephedrine, racephedrine... The 5% final sulfuric acid concentration boil gave over 50%, and maybe close to 65% yield of what seems to be high quality product.  Post 523508 (UncleFester: "sulfuric acid hydrolysis", Stimulants) Makes me stand UP/move around  69
		PolytheneSam (Master Searcher) 10-24-04 01:41 No 537393				Post 172833
						Post 172833 (PolytheneSam: "Re: Polymers, polymers: BLAH: Gimmee a BRAKE", Stimulants) http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-24-04 11:39 No 537458				getting the red out
						So that's where they put that filter plugging ingredient. It's just amazing how fast the stuff will make a coffee filter nonfunctional. On the post after the sulfuric acid hydrolysis you will see that after the solvent evaporated from the gassing it became apparent that the product wasn't the good quality material obtained from KOH hydrolysis and would need recrystallization.
		thinkpol (Stranger) 10-24-04 11:39 No 537459				KOH
						is the evaporation of KOH from drain cleaner fesible? Furthermore, from a solution that in its MSDS is described as 16% KOH and the rest comprising of water.. Would such a method be suited? To bee or not to be
		Amnesia (Stranger) 10-24-04 13:16 No 537465				if its 16% KOH and 84% water, then as your...
						if its 16% KOH and 84% water, then as your name says... THINK. Evap, so you minus the water... you will be left with just KOH. Thats ALL the info you gave us, and what i gave you is the only answer you can get back, and of course you could of worked that one out for yourself, no? And if your asking that question expecting someone to turn around and go, no theirs some denaturant in their, how the hell is anyone suppose to know. Because you said it yourself, its just KOH + Water.
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 10-25-04 14:04 No 537689				Cause for concern?
						2 questions.  1. Last KOH boil developed 2 layers but lower layer remained clear to milky, pseudo gassed from tolly as usual and appears fine, should no coffee color in bottom layer bee a concern? and 2. Can KOH used in this process bee recycled and if so how?  Take it easy on swim UF. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		abominator (Hive Bee) 10-25-04 16:10 No 537707				You could burn test the pseudo
						An easy ghetto way of telling about your pseudoephedrine is too burn test it on foil.   Just take a small sample of your extract and vaporize it.  Take a notice of the residue it leaves.  From personal experience, as well as advice from other bees, if it leaves a white powdery substance, then there are still polymers and the pseudo is not ready for a reaction.  If it leaves black or brown traces it is reaction worthy, but will still likely be gakked.  Want one wants is for almost no residue at all left on the foil.  This will, if reacted properly produce in this bee's experience a very, clean post reaction workUP and potent methamphetamine. Makes me stand UP/move around  69
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-26-04 00:41 No 537809				read the thread experimentals
						As I recall it was the name brand sudo pills which gave an oily layer which didn't turn coffee colored. They worked up with no problem. The lack of color on the oil layer may be due to using a better grade of crap additive.
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 10-27-04 19:54 No 538130				Question 2 from previous post....
						Can the KOH from this procedure be recovered and used again and if so how? Tina Craig worked for me!!
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 10-27-04 23:01 No 538192				reply
						Not as easy as it is to just buy, its not like your asking for LG RP or something of the like. If you want to fuck with that snotty mess you got it bad man.. I would rather fuck with anything but that. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 10-28-04 17:19 No 538343				Good point, forget that.
						Good point, forget that.  Swit_c has also found some drain cleaner containing bleach and KOH if left to evap forms a good layer of KOH that resembles KOH that swit_c purchased a while back. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		meths (Stranger) 10-29-04 11:09 No 538508				Pseudo sulfate
						How well does the KOH/ISO cure work with pseudo sulfate pills?
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 10-29-04 19:21 No 538591				From Uncle's text above: Is pseudo sulfate...
						From Uncle's text above: Is pseudo sulfate difficult to get dissolved in alcohol? If so, a bit of HCl in the extraction alcohol might help....otherwise I can see no reason why pseudo sulfate pills wouldn't behave in a similar way... Tina Craig worked for me!!
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 10-30-04 01:28 No 538653				reply
						Swim has never seen pseudo sulfate gacked up. The only sulfate he has seen came from behind the counter in 25mg caps. All that has to be done is an A/B with HCl to get to a workable product... You could use KOH instead of Sodium hydroxide in the basing if you wanted to.. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 10-30-04 22:09 No 538784				gakked pseudo sulfate pills
						Off the shelf at a local market 240 mg pseudo sulfate pills with 10 mg loratadine. Among the listed ingredients: black iron oxide, candellilla wax, colloidial SiO2, glyceryl monostearate, hypromellose, lactose, Mg Stearate, PEG, polysorbate 80, sodium lauryl sulfate...and probably eudragit among the unlisted ingredients.
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 10-31-04 01:54 No 538844				I had no idea
						I had no idea. They don't carry sulfate in my neck of the woods except BTC by request. These you can buy 3 bottles at 100ea in one visit there 25mg E Sulfate that weighs in at a little over 25mg's with the jell cap. The hard part is actually going up to the pharmacist and asking for them. No script needed but behind the counter none the less. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 11-01-04 17:08 No 539089				Note on CVS 48 ct. x 60mg Whites
						3 boxes of CVS 48ct. white 60's Pills finely ground and added to 450ml 91% ISO IPA Shaken well and left to soak for 2 hours. Filtered. Alky divided into 2 equal portions. Both portions brought to boil. Portion #1: Added 15 grams of KOH when alky began boiling, boiled 30 minutes.  Allowed to settle and cool.  Upper layer decanted off and put in evap dish and evapped until almost completely dry.  Added 20ml dh2o, put this in separatory funnel.  Added 125ml of toluene in 3 equal portions and added to separatory funnel.  Washed this with dh20 3x.  Next toluene was poured through filter papers and funnel filled with dried epsom salts 3x and gassed to return 3 grams of pristine looking pseudo. Portion #2: Brought to boil and added 5 grams of KOH from supplier and 20 grams KOH evapped from drain cleaner containing KOH and bleach (was out of the chips), evapped until no more smell of bleach could be detected.  These evapped chips brought on a yellow color to entire mix that would not leave, assumed due to traces of bleach that were left behind.  Same procedure as Portion #1 and at the end after gassing had pseudo with a yellow tint and this was washed with acetone until white, about 2 grams. Each portion was reacted separately and during basing of rxn fluid color went from blue to green to brown.  Yields from portion #1 rxn was 2 grams of methamphetamine from initial 3 grams of pseudo pulled from pills.  Yield from portion #2 was about 1.25 grams of meth from 2 grams of pseudo pulled from pills. Was this OI and OII gacks slipping through the KOH boil? Tina Craig worked for me!!
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 11-06-04 02:33 No 539955				garbage in...garbage out...
						I have no experience using drain cleaner with bleach in this process, but would imagine that bleach is slipping through the cracks and your load of KOH may have been too high. Hypoclorite is supposed to be unstable out of solution. Maybe a small bake would push it over the edge before it was used to hydrolyse pill polymers. In any case, I would thing a better source of KOH is called for.
		Drug_Phreak (Hive Bee) 11-06-04 03:17 No 539960				OTC KOH
						Just incase any bees missed this or are not aware of this... Pequa Heavy Duty Drain Opener seems like a real good source of OTC KOH. The only two ingredients are KOH and H2O. I found this in many stores so it's bound to be in a store around you (in the US anyway).  Pequa Heavy Duty Drain Opener Potassium hydroxide 45% Water 55% Info Source: http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/index.htm Crank is part of this complete breakfast.
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 11-06-04 15:56 No 540033				well, at least it used to be...
						There is a reason we don't discuss name brands on such things... mostly harmless
		Drug_Phreak (Hive Bee) 11-06-04 19:28 No 540050				hhhmmmm....
						I don't know about that Geez. For example... Red Devil Lye has probably been found in like 98978838273728 meth labs and it's still available OTC all over the place. I don't think the DEA could ever remove OTC products like these. It's not even a listed or essential chemical. I'm fully against posting sources, but I don't consider an OTC product that is available in many stores all over the place to be a source. Crank is part of this complete breakfast.
		geezmeister (Of Counsel) 11-06-04 20:53 No 540060				Not a source
						Its not what is considered a "source." It is a product of a single supplier, who may be asked to alter the composition of his product accordingly. What happens then? Note instead that drain cleaners containing nothing by dilute KOH area available in your area and supply the brand by PM to those who are ingenious to know to ask you... and the source remains as is. I think Unob said something similar recently in the first of the sticky threads atop this forum... I'm not sure, I didn't read it, since it didn't seem to be addressed to me. mostly harmless
		reeB_relliM (Stranger) 11-07-04 06:31 No 540136				KOH ...in what form?
						Sorry if this sounds  like a silly question, but SWIM wonders about what form of KOH was used? Uncle Fester says KOH is dehorner,  ...okay, well there are several forms of this,  ...gel, paiste, stick, etc.  Would like to know which form was used.  Thanks a million!!!  reeB Just because the voices have stopped, does not mean that they are gone! (lol!)
		wareami (Hive Addict) 11-07-04 06:44 No 540139				Tsk Tsk...
						You didn't read the whole thread! Post 503208 (UncleFester: "the simpler alternative", Stimulants) If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
		Buckshot (Hive Bee) 11-07-04 15:25 No 540203				reading the whole thread
						most of this thread is full of "read the whole threads" I can understand that bees gotta pay thier dues, and reading for a couple hours is a small one to pay at that. But how bout a post within this thread that condenses all the material into one easy to read post. Then it can be bookmarked and used for easy reference.  How bout it guys? Viva la insurgents
		wareami (Hive Addict) 11-07-04 20:16 No 540235				I agree buckshot...
						I know it wasn't Unc F's intent, but it was a work in progress thread and I even got lost when the thread was only 100 replys long. But I just worked that much harder at keeping track soas to not get lost in the shuffle. Those that just come here and skim off what provided, don't have a clue how much goes on behind the scenes and the difficultes in providing conscise,comprehensive, step by steps. Especially when the kinks aren't fully worked out. Sometimes, the only way to bring the method to the forefront before a new formulation renders the method useless, is to post what ya got and draw off the input and feedback of other do-bees willing to lend a hand with the fieldwork testing. I'm sure when all the results are tried and true and all the variables and kinks are worked out, a more comprehensive compilation will find it's way to the board. In the meanwhile....what you see is what you get! If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 11-08-04 03:21 No 540324				reply
						The procedure is laded out in the very first post. It has not changed except for the non-polar presoak is not nessary. Other bees have gave a damn good try at changing it around but in the long run it is as it is posted. The KOH is pure crystal form. At app 5 grams per 100 pills at 30mg ea, this amount to very as to the amount of gack encountered. The alcohol is 91% IPA and the boiling time is around 1/2 a hour.. Everything else is standard operating procedure.. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		reeB_relliM (Stranger) 11-08-04 04:14 No 540340				Making sure SWIM has this straight.....
						Please excuse SWIM's ignorance here, but does he really mean to grind up the pills in a blender with toluene?? SWIM has read this thread until he was blue in the face,  ...it went from dehorner, to ol' lye soap, to using fake salt and some other damn thing. Realizing this is "in the works" and needing fine tuned, no big deal, ...that's awesome!! SWIM is gratefull to have such a wealth of information such as this, where he can soak up the needed info, Thank You! He also truely appreciates UF's time and efforts on the given subject, You da man!!! (..how can I bee da man, when you bee da man? lol!) Now, from this: Generally I publish recipes in my books, but this is an unforseen situation. I had thought that steamimg out the goods would cover this situation, but it only works on ephedrine...so here is what Fester labs has come up with.. 100 sudo pills of the typical store variety were ground in a blender with about 150 ml toluene. After grinding to a fine size they were stirred a bit for about an hor, then filtered and the pill mass allowed to dry. (Note: this may be a waste of time) After drying, the pill mass was extracted with portions of 91% isoprpyl alcohol, about 150 ml was used total as the extracts faded from bright red orange to weakly dull red orange, this experimenter was using the gak as a signal flag for the goods as the World Patent I posted up before said that they were mixing the crap with the goods, and the solubilities are similar. Forget about picking scales...an exercise in idiocy... the isopropyl alky extract nicely filtered was put in a big beaker and put on a stove top and heated...as it approached boiling about 5 grams of KOH was added with some swirling...my goodness how it reacted as it dissolved...the solution was nearing boiling and the chips seemed to have a life of their own...as the solution boiled, the color changed from dark red orange to light orange, while another layer at the bottom of the flask appeared...it was hard to tell what its color was, but there was no rap music, so it must not have been black...the solution was boiled for 20 minutes, then allowed to cool...the solution was poured into a sep funnel and the lower layer which had the color of boiled down coffee was separated off. The alky solution was put back in the beaker, and a very gentle heat, blow off the alky fumes, or just sit and evaporate strategy was employed for a day until what was left was a semi-dry crystalline mass on the bottom of the beaker that still smelled of isopropyl. The experimenter's next move was to wash with 20 ml of water, although that may have been a bad move...as he swirled around many flakes got sucked up in the water and they had to be sudo flakes...the idea was to dissolve KOH...the water wash was put into a sep funnel, and it looked like Pepto-Bismol...to what was left in the beaker a couple small size toluene washes were rinsed around, then added to the sep funnel..total used was about 75 ml with some time to play on the sides...once they went into the sep funnel, the toluene layer displayed no gak character. It was a single dividing line between the water and solvent.The toluene was washed a couple of times with water portions of roughly half the size of the solvent layer, and the toluene layer was clear but cloudy with incorporated water...the crap went to the water. The toluene was put in a beaker for a few hours to drain intrained water, and then when clear was poured into another beaker and gassed with HCL to give what look to be nice and pure extract. I've seen it before, so I think I can tell the real McCoy. Fuck tetra trap,,,etc,,,,just extract and boil...then clean. Not trying to beat a dead horse, or anything likewise. But from this, one can't help but feel somewhat confused? As UF said, "It's easy",   ...SWIM has no doubt that this is an easy task to accomplish, however, it would be nice if someone who truely understands this process, would put it into an easier to understand, ..easier to follow format, that's all. Grind up the PM in toluene, or grind PM before adding the toluene? OR is this particular step skipped entirely?? Having no chemistry background, I'd be so sweet if the entire procedure "as is", bee layed out into lamens terms. Thanks a million!!  reeB Just because the voices have stopped, does not mean that they are gone! (lol!)
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 11-08-04 15:26 No 540443				As easy as it gets..
						Swit_c's procedure that has worked every time when using proper amounts of proper chemicals with proper time: For every 100 pills which means 96 x 30mg or 48 x 60mg and so on and so on. Chemicals: 10 grams of Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) 150ml of 91% Isopropyl Alcohol (ISO IPA) 20ml distilled H2O (d-H2O) 75-100ml toluene Dried Epsom Salts HCl gas w/ apparatus Equipment: Heat source (NO OPEN FLAMES!) 1 Jar with lid 3-4 beakers or ghetto equivalent Separatory Funnel or ghetto equivalent Funnel Filters Procedure: If dealing with red hots remove most of red prior to this procedure. 1. Grind pills thoroughly to a fine powder.  As fine as possible. 2. Cover with 150ml of 91% ISO IPA in a jar with lid.  Close jar and shake until thoroughly mixed.  Let sit until it settles.  Shake again until thoroughly mixed.  Let sit until it settles.  Repeat 2x. 3. Filter alcohol/pseudo into a clean beaker. 4. Place on heat source and bring to boil.   5. When alky starts bubbling slightly add 10 grams of KOH slowly (don't dump it all in at once as it can and will boil over and alcohol on a hot plate is very smelly)  Give each addition time to dissolve and react.  After all of KOH has been added start the timer for 30-60 minutes, at least 30 but you can boil down some of the alchol to make evap time shorter.  After boiling for at least 30 minutes 2 layers should be present, your alky layer and an oily discolored layer at the bottom.  Color can vary from dark coffee brown to yellowish to colorless.  6. After 30-60 minutes remove from heat, pour into separatory funnel and allow to cool and settle for about 1-2 hours.  Drain lower oily layer pour alky/pseudo mix into a clean beaker, also clean sep. funnel. 7. Evap alky down in beaker on LOW heat with a fan blowing over top until you have alky smelling pseudo crystals, but do not burn.  To this add 20ml of distilled H2O, swirl and pour into sep. funnel.  Next add 75-100ml of toluene to crystals and swirl to collect all pseudo and add this to sep. funnel.  Wash 2x with equal portions of distilled H2O, draining H2O(bottom) layer each time as this is the waste.  8. After washing toluene you have 2 options:  a) Drain to a clean beaker and let it sit 2-4 hours to drain entrained water, pour into clean dry beaker then gas; or b) pour toluene through a funnel with a filter full of dried epsom salts into a clean dry beaker and gas with HCl and calcium chloride or your favorite gas mix. 9. Filter gassed pseudo and dry. Note:  If wishing to obtain freebase pseudo, after alky evaporation wash crystals with distilled H2O and then with acetone.  Also save all fluids until you have final product, just in case!! If anyone sees anything wrong with this please let Swit_c know.  Just trying to help out, but it is all in the thread. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		oxyprazolam (Stranger) 11-08-04 15:35 No 540446				question about acetone
						tina_craig: wouldnt an acetone wash of the FB crystals dissolve them?
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 11-08-04 16:13 No 540450				Swit_c hasn't done this but it was a tip from...
						Swit_c hasn't done this but it was a tip from a VERY reliable member of this site.  So, switc would say no, but if so, such a little amount that it isn't significant. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		wareami (Hive Addict) 11-08-04 22:58 No 540501				Never assume....
						In this day and age with tricky gaaks and pH adjusters that either inhibit or promote solvation in sovents and solutions, it'snot good practice to discard anything until all is accounted for. Especially rinses and washes that may trap some goodies in the processes of cleaning. Acetone washes in pre-rxn cleaning is known to borrow some of the goodies...hcl and FB. Same with post-rxn meth. Some will dissolve in acetone. MEK is more notorious than Tone for shoplifting goods. Always collect and save the washings and evap and rewash any residual goodz for maximum yields. If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 11-09-04 01:14 No 540530				grinding in a blender with toluene
						To get a fine grind of very gummy pills, it is best if they are suspended in solvent so that the bits are carried up into the blades and chopped.  Since I was looking for an N.P solvent pre-soak at that point, that meant grind in toluene. I note that the latest pill formulations aren't that gummy and grind fairly fine as is, but they will return. Right now, the unground bits can be chrushed with a spoon on a plate on a small scale. Smaller grind equals better extraction.
		UncleFester (Popular Author) 11-09-04 03:09 No 540550				to expound on the last point..
						Prior to the intro to the Orange Gak polymers, the favored pill formulation included goo which didn't grind well in a blender and yielded some powder with shards of goo. This mix doesn't extract well, but is defeated on that point by grinding while in solvent of choice. Expect to see it again, as it is gone for now.
		wareami (Hive Addict) 11-09-04 12:15 No 540624				Uncl:
						Uncl: So until that time that the goo reimmerges on the scene...it isn't necessary to grind UP pills in the presense of solvent. Is that right? Not that Ibee uses grinders and blenders et.al. He'd like to clear UP any confusion before there is any. If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 11-09-04 16:56 No 540665				Grindage
						Ibee grinds his pills up in a ceramic cup with the plastic handle off of a screwdriver.  Hand cramps often but works well as a ghetto mortar and pestle. BTW Uncle Fester:  Still waiting for new run of KOH to arrive so evapped that shitty drain cleaner that switc has and took swiy's tip about a quick bake, seemed to work like a charm.  Boiled down 48 x 60mg white equates with 10 grams of the evapped KOH.  The odd thing is no layers ever formed after 45 minutes of boiling and not all of the KOH chips dissolved, left the bottom 1/8" remaining in the beaker anyway, pseudo FB evapped out nicely washed this with water and acetone and rxted to give some excellent gogo.  Any ideas on the no layers thing?  Started with 150ml of 91%ISOIPA and 10 grams KOH. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		Jacked (Ancient Alchemist Delux) 11-09-04 22:45 No 540712				reply
						Swim evaps the alcohol and takes the dry FB then does a water wash while still in the filter swim will spray acetone over the FB, some crystal surfaces are holding gack and the acetone etches this surface, very little FB is lost. Compair it to washing a recrystallized meth crystal with alcohol to etch the surface.. The resulting FB crystal is very white and clean. Plus it helps facilitate drying. Swim prefers FB reactions to HCl anyday. Tighten Up!  (UH)
		secretsquirrel (Stranger) 11-10-04 01:37 No 540727				extreme deconstructionism.. p2p?
						How about extreme deconstruction of the ground up pills with sulfuric acid and steam disillation? (see the ephedrine to p2p syth on Rhodium) Anybody have any thoughts on this idea?
		placebo (arrogant bee of the day) 11-10-04 12:25 No 540812				I've said it before and I'll say it again.
						I've said it before and I'll say it again. KOH solution...i.e. KOH dissolved in water, when evapped does not give you KOH. KOH upon evap reacts with the air to make something else, I can't remember what that is but it is not the same. In the case of isomerizing safrole, it is bad, fucks everything and even eats glass. This might not hurt you with pills but be aware of it. KOH RAW is too easy to get to be fucking with solution shit. Bee warned. Use the KOH solution as is if a bit of water isn't a problem, don't evap it. It's not really me, it's Android in disguise!
		tina_craig (Hive Bee) 11-11-04 20:30 No 541074				Ok, well what the hell happpened?
						Switc evapped KOH/Bleach drain cleaner and was left with white flakes, took these and baked in the oven for about 20 minutes.  Boiled down 48 60's with 2 inactives listed.  No layers formed.  Evapped alky to give the FB pseudo and reacted this to give excellent gear (1st FB rxn posted in Stimulants).  So, if the drain cleaner doesn't evap to give KOH then what the hell did switc boil switc's pills with and how the hell was clean gear the product?  All of the supposed KOH flakes would not dissolve either and used the recommended amount of 10 grams for every 2.88 grams.  When rxn solution was basified only changed to milky white, no off colors present.  Very confused. Tina Craig worked for me!!
		Drug_Phreak (Hive Bee) 11-11-04 21:28 No 541081				Failure on these ones
						This method was tried on name brand pills with 4mg of Chlorpheniramine maleate and 60mg of Pseudoephedrine HCl per pill. With the following inactives: lactose, magnesium stearate, potato starch, and povidone. Upon adding KOH to the IPA no color change was noticed. The solution was clear for about 5 minutes... then it turned a murky yellowish... then a dark brown. As the solution turned brown a dark red precipitate came out of solution (it looked like RP). The last bits of KOH that where about to dissolve also turned this dark red color. The solution was allowed to boil for 20 minutes and no layers formed. The red precipitate was filtered out and the solution was allowed to cool and let sit for a few hours to see if any layers would form... no layers formed. This dark brown solution was evaporated on very low heat and there was a brownish crystalline mass at the bottom that looked like it had a gravy mother over it. Some dH20 was added to the beaker and put into a sep funnel and then some Toluene was added to the beaker and that was placed into the sep funnel. Most of the brown solid stayed in the aqueous phase. The Toluene was washed two times with dH20. The Toluene was then dried and gassed. DrugPhreak expected no crystals to form, but white crystals did in fact form. DrugPhreak doesn't know what these crystals are though cause they sure ain’t P-Fed. They are not bitter at all... not acidic either. They had a slightly salty taste. Potassium Chloride maybe or something?!??! O_o DrugPhreak put the rest of their feed thru the Straight to E procedure and it appears that very nice P-Fed was obtained from these pills that way. DrugPhreak used some of their post Straight to E feed with this KOH/IPA procedure just to see if that red precipitate would form... it didn't and the solution stayed clear. DrugPhreak didn't go thru the whole process again cause they where getting sleepy as fuck and felt extremely exhausted... not to mention braking their 1000ml sep funnel. DrugPhreak was amazed that the solution stayed clear though. Other tests where preformed on this feed obtained with Straight to E and they all went well (e.g. burn test) etc.            DrugPhreak is truly sick and tired of the gakk and this will be their last time obtaining feed from pills. I think it's really about time we all use the easily obtainable Ma-Huang to get our feed. These pills are seriously overpriced and we don't need their damn pills! We shouldn't have to jump thru loops to get high and we don't have too! Let them keep their infestations to themselves. I will devote as much time and energy that is needed to prefect a Ma-Huang extraction that is easy, OTC, and high yielding. I'm in the process of obtaining and translating the follow patents. If any Bees can help me obtain these patents or can translate them I would appreciate it very much. They are: Patent CN1132740 Patent CN1443749 Patent IN185200 Patent CN1364756 Crank is part of this complete breakfast.